Author Topic: Torsion Bars  (Read 3216 times)

Offline 72bluNblu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1836
Re: Torsion Bars
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2016 - 03:30:57 AM »
no

quote author=cudabob496 link=topic=113254.msg1108745#msg1108745 date=1459017195]
are they easy to replace??


A buddy came up with this rig.  Its come-a-long attached to a drain hole in the rear frame rail with a heavy chain wrapped around the t-bar in the front and a couple vise grips clamped on right after the chain to stop the chain from flying off.  Just did my Charger yesterday and my Cuda couple months ago, and many other Mopars.  Looks goofy but it works.




All you have to do is take everything off the LCA (shock, spindle, etc) and then remove the T-bar clip. Once the LCA pivot pin nut is removed you can use a dead blow mallet to drive the LCA back, and the torsion bar pops right out. No special tools or contraptions needed.

Stock torsion bars were too small from the factory, and that was with OE equipment. Upgrade your horsepower, tires and shocks and you need larger bars. I run 1.12" bars on my 318 powered challenger, and with a set of Bilstein shocks the ride isn't bad at all. That's probably larger than you need to go, but I would be looking at something over 1" for sure. I wouldn't put torsion bars smaller than 1" on any of my cars for any reason.




Offline rUNCHARGER

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1169
Re: Torsion Bars
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2016 - 12:16:03 PM »
What 72 said. Loosen off the LCA and remove the Tbar clips. Then drive or pry the LCA back which pushes the Tbar back, then rattle the LCA forward off the TBar and you're done, no special tools required.
I agree on the 1 inch or larger TBar recommendation. I run .96 on my Challenger and it is okay but 1 inch or more would be better especially on today's smooth roads.

Sheldon

Offline cudabob496

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Torsion Bars
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2016 - 08:08:25 PM »
OK, gotta think about it, as someone mentioned the smaller T-bars are better if you drag race,
and want the car to rock backwards, when you take off, to help weight transfer.

Is there a simple mod for ditching the T-bars and going to coil overs?? Is it worth it??
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline 72bluNblu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1836
Re: Torsion Bars
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2016 - 03:31:15 AM »
OK, gotta think about it, as someone mentioned the smaller T-bars are better if you drag race,
and want the car to rock backwards, when you take off, to help weight transfer.

Is there a simple mod for ditching the T-bars and going to coil overs?? Is it worth it??

There is no "simple" way to go to coilovers that doesn't involve writing a check for several thousand dollars to RMS, HemiDenny, Magnumforce, etc. At least not safely.

As for it being worth it, I suppose it depends. If you're installing a Gen III hemi and just absolutely need the room for headers or a different oil pan, maybe. If you absolutely need to have rack and pinion steering, well, it's the only way to do that with anything that resembles half decent geometry. But other than that, all you're doing is grafting a 1970's design Mustang II suspension onto a Mopar chassis that was designed to carry it's suspension loads in completely different places (crossmembers, not the shock towers). There is nothing magical about coilovers. They are a spring and a shock, nothing more, nothing less. A torsion bar is just a spring.

Why ditch the torsion bars? The brand new revived Ford GT supercar uses a torsion bar front suspension, so no point trying to argue it's an outdated design. The Hotchkis Taxi, driven by TireRack's test driver on a tire testing course, put down lap times that were a second faster than the 2012 3-series BMW that test driver usually drives on that track, with the same tires. 1 second per lap faster than a 2012 BMW 3 series. Remember, the Hotchkis Taxi is a 4 door 1970 Satellite.

So, if you want coilovers, knock yourself out. But you don't need them. It used to be that you had more tuning ability with coilovers, but the options for shocks and torsion bars are improving every day. If you know how to tune a torsion bar suspension, you can pretty much do what you need to do. Yeah, most of my examples are road course or autoX. But if you can tune the torsion bar suspension to do that you can sure as heck set it up to drag race.

Offline 70chall440

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 6484
Re: Torsion Bars
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2016 - 05:38:36 PM »
OK, gotta think about it, as someone mentioned the smaller T-bars are better if you drag race,
and want the car to rock backwards, when you take off, to help weight transfer.

Is there a simple mod for ditching the T-bars and going to coil overs?? Is it worth it??

I agree, there is no "easy" way to do this. I researched it at length when planning my Cuda and eventually decided to retain the stock style components. Some time later I assisted with the installation of a Magnum Force system (didn't like it at all). Personally I cannot find any real good reason why to move away from the stock suspension system/design. Some have argued that the T bars are in the way of the headers or make exhaust difficult, however $800 for TTI headers or 3-6 times that for a complete front suspension system makes it a bit of a no brainer from my prospective. I also didn't want Mustang II parts or in some cases C5 corvette parts on my car.

Another point, you can go too big on the T bars, I have 1.14" bars on my Cuda but it is built as a road race car; it is VERY stiff and I am sure will ride pretty rough but it isn't going to be a daily driver..  :bigsmile:
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline dodj

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 6197
Re: Torsion Bars
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2016 - 08:43:12 PM »
especially on today's smooth roads.

Sheldon
:clueless:   Where do you live. I play dodge the pot holes here in Ontario! LOL
Which is why my t-bars are over an inch. Last second changes of direction.  :grinyes:
Scott
1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

Offline 72bluNblu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1836
Re: Torsion Bars
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2016 - 12:59:41 AM »


Another point, you can go too big on the T bars, I have 1.14" bars on my Cuda but it is built as a road race car; it is VERY stiff and I am sure will ride pretty rough but it isn't going to be a daily driver..  :bigsmile:

Buy better shocks. I have over 60k miles on the 1.12" firm feel torsion bars on my Challenger, and I run 17" rims. Although a lot of those miles were on a set of KYB's (ouch), the ride with the RCD bilsteins that are on it now is great, not unlike most modern cars.

I run 1.12" bars on my duster too, although on the A-body platform that's a stiffer bar with a wheel rate of 300lb/in. It has 18" rims and a bunch of chassis stiffening, not to mention being a lighter car to begin with. It rides better than my challenger with its Hotchkis Fox shocks.

It's all about having components that work with easy other.

Offline HP2

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4478
Re: Torsion Bars
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2016 - 09:28:22 AM »
I'd highly recommend picking up the Mopar Chassis Book and reading through it. It will address a large number of the questions here and give you some formulas for putting together an effective Mopar based suspension system that works properly for your intended application.

If the goal is to loose as much weight as possible and turn the suspension action into a squatting GM copy, then the best route is to dump it all for an aftermarket coil over system.

Offline 70chall440

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 6484
Re: Torsion Bars
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2016 - 11:28:53 AM »
Buy better shocks. I have over 60k miles on the 1.12" firm feel torsion bars on my Challenger, and I run 17" rims. Although a lot of those miles were on a set of KYB's (ouch), the ride with the RCD bilsteins that are on it now is great, not unlike most modern cars.

I run 1.12" bars on my duster too, although on the A-body platform that's a stiffer bar with a wheel rate of 300lb/in. It has 18" rims and a bunch of chassis stiffening, not to mention being a lighter car to begin with. It rides better than my challenger with its Hotchkis Fox shocks.

It's all about having components that work with easy other.

I am running Bilsteins on the front and Strange coil overs in the rear (have a 4 link). They car isn't running yet so I cannot comment on how well it does or doesn't ride; it might be just fine.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)