Author Topic: 10:1 AFR at WOT  (Read 6875 times)

Offline Ravage

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10:1 AFR at WOT
« on: May 24, 2016 - 08:57:44 AM »
This is the year I get my carb. sorted out. I installed an AFR gauge and worked my idle mixture to about 13.8 (the internet tells me 318s like this ratio). Under normal driving load on streets and freeway, even to 70mph @ 3000 rpm I'm holding a pretty steady 14.5 +/- .5   When I stomp on the gas my AFR dips to 10 and the car bogs down for about 1.5 seconds then everything comes back to life without a lot of snap. At this time I'm thinking my secondary jets are too large. Thoughts / opinions? 
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Offline Oldschool

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Re: 10:1 AFR at WOT
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2016 - 09:00:42 AM »
What kind of carb are you using?
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Offline Ravage

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Re: 10:1 AFR at WOT
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2016 - 09:51:37 AM »
Holly 670 street avenger on edelbrock  RPM performer
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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 10:1 AFR at WOT
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2016 - 10:17:26 AM »
 I would start with the power valve , if it is rated too high it will open early dumping fuel into the carb / airstream  ,this is the most likely problem where fuel is introduced without extra air flow , so if you have a vacuum of say 12" at idle in gear you will need a 6.5 or 5.5 power valve  , if the vacuum is lower at idle in gear  a lower rated pv it will work better , the carb should have a 6.5" Pv in it now from the factory .
The Avenger has a Vacuum  secondary , so the secondary could be a problem although generally extra fuel will not enter without extra air but it may work better with a heavier spring in it to slow the opening rate to allow for higher airflow before opening the secondary , if the secondary is opening too fast  & there is enough air flow the jetting could be too large but why would it clear up in a few seconds if the jetting was too large it would continue to stay rich evenly mixing the fuel with the air

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Offline Strawdawg

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Re: 10:1 AFR at WOT
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2016 - 08:26:02 PM »
what are the o2's after the car starts to run again?

Offline jhaag

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Re: 10:1 AFR at WOT
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2016 - 08:48:49 PM »
Might just need a smaller accelerator pump squirter, or different pump cam, or adjustment.
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Offline YO7_A66

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Re: 10:1 AFR at WOT
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2016 - 09:31:29 PM »
 A 10 reading at WOT means something is DUMPING fuel very quickly especially with a vacuum secondary carb.
What are your secondary jets?
Are you running a standard PV? They also make the four window HF power valve and that is not what you want with this setup.
Have you modified the Power Valve Restrictor size?

Offline Cudakiller70

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Re: 10:1 AFR at WOT
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2016 - 09:35:42 PM »
 :popcorn:
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Offline HP_Cuda

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Re: 10:1 AFR at WOT
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2016 - 02:35:22 AM »

Secondary jets and/or the vacuum spring is not silver like it should be for a stock carb.

Don't ask me how I experienced this one... yeah black spring but had the opposite problem.
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Offline turbostang7

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Re: 10:1 AFR at WOT
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2016 - 10:07:04 AM »
I would second the squirter, or accelerator pump opinion, if it happens as soon as you stab it that is probably your issue.
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Offline Ravage

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Re: 10:1 AFR at WOT
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2016 - 10:23:53 AM »
I'm not entirely sure of my jet size. My brother was tinkering with it a couple years ago and may have changed them. I need to check with him to be sure. I ordered a 5.5 and 4.5 power valve, and vacuum gauge. If the weather holds out I'll get into it this weekend. I'll go over all these items and update :-)

Edit: carb is in factory condition. 67/65 jets if I recall correctly.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016 - 11:25:50 AM by Ravage »
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Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: 10:1 AFR at WOT
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2016 - 02:21:38 PM »
What happens when you continue at WOT? Does the AFR lean out again?

If it does, then, it's not the jets and you need to focus on the accelerator pump nozzle or pump cam, vacuum secondary springs, and power valve. If the AFR stays at 10 even after you've held WOT long enough for everything to reach steady state (ie, secondaries wide open and accelerator pump shot gone) then you need to look at the jet size.

Keep in mind that with a street avenger you only have one accelerator pump, and it's on the primary side (not like a double pumper which has one on the secondary side too, hence the name!). So, you can make the pump shot smaller, but that will effect the AFR's even when you're only on the primary side.  Meaning that you'll also lean things out even when you're just doing part throttle acceleration. If your AFR's are great except when you go to WOT and kick into the secondaries then you probably want to leave the pump shot alone and concentrate on the secondary spring, power valve, and secondary jets.

Another trick to check the power valve is to accelerate up a long grade. If the power valve is coming in too early, you'll see it while pulling the hill under load. Obviously you don't want to run lean doing this either, but on a long grade you can judge how soon you want the power valve to come in, using your acceleration and AFR to judge when it should be kicking in. If you work the pedal right you can pretty much look at just the power valve, ie, with nice steady acceleration you can mostly keep the accelerator pump and secondaries out of the equation as long as you don't accelerate too hard. That will show you exactly when the power valve opens up, and you can decide if you want it to be later or not.

I had the opposite issue with the street avengers on my 340. I tried both 670 and 770 avengers on my Duster, and I could never get rid of a lean spot when I stomped on it and still have it run decent the rest of the time. I adjusted the pump cam, pump nozzle, power valve, secondary spring, secondary jets, even primary jets trying to ease the transition some. If it was right on the primary and secondary sides at "steady state" it was lean in the transition, and if the transition was close it was drowning the car in fuel on the primary side. I had to go to a 750 DP. But I've got a fairly hot 340, it idles around 9" of vacuum, has ported heads, 9.8:1 compression etc. And a 4 speed. After a lot of research I've come to the conclusion that the vacuum secondary carbs have a hard time keeping up with a 4 speed, especially with hotter engines. The mechanical secondary DP dumps fuel at the transition to WOT, which is apparently what my engine needs. With an automatic transmission things work better for the vacuum secondary carbs, just has to do with how the transmission loads the engine I guess.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016 - 02:37:21 PM by 72bluNblu »

Offline HP_Cuda

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Re: 10:1 AFR at WOT
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016 - 05:45:58 PM »

Check out the specs on the avenger 870 - you will be surprised.

Although it would be much for a hot 340 as you would be most likely over VE.
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Offline Ravage

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Re: 10:1 AFR at WOT
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2016 - 08:16:26 PM »
What happens when you continue at WOT? Does the AFR lean out again?

It does lean out again, it's just that for that 1.5 seconds it's like I didn't floor it at all, then the speed comes up but not impressively, even for a lil' 318.
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Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: 10:1 AFR at WOT
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2016 - 09:11:49 PM »
It does lean out again, it's just that for that 1.5 seconds it's like I didn't floor it at all, then the speed comes up but not impressively, even for a lil' 318.


Ok. So, you're basically looking at the pump shot, secondary spring and power valve. If the AFR leans back out to decent once you're steady state at WOT you don't want to mess with the secondary jets.

If the car is good on part throttle acceleration, ie, when you're still on the primary side but you're getting some pump shot, then you probably won't want to mess with the pump shot too much or at all. You could try a different pump cam, leaving the nozzle size alone, to delay the pump shot a little. But again, if the AFR is good on partial acceleration you probably don't want to mess with that too much.

Alternatively, you could change out the secondary spring to delay the secondaries a little. This is probably your best option.

Or, if the power valve is coming in early, you could put a lower number power valve in there to delay the power valve a bit, so you don't get the pump shot, power valve, and secondaries all at the same time when you go to WOT. But again, if the power valve is working well under other conditions, you might not want a drastic change here. Depends on how big your cam is and what your vacuum looks like.

Here's a chart for the secondary spring selection...