Timing drives me crazy.....

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Offline brasil

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2016 - 03:45:52 PM »
.....and I played again with my Dizzy...

I went back to 10 deg. @ idle....raised the advance up to 24 deg...all in @ 2750 rpm... but the car idled...  TERRIBLE ( of course..) so I decided to hang on the vAcuum advance on  MANIFOLD Vacuum...  ( the advance canister makes 10 deg  @ the crank btw. )

So I have 20 deg Advance @ idle now....  and the engine runs much smoother...  also I could close the wide open Trottle blades...and reduce the Idle mixture... significant....  The car seems to like this setup......

Also there is no more pinging..  ( thanks god )...      So what did I learn ?  MANIFOLD VACUUM is a good helper.... when using a nasty cam..

Greetings Juergen




Offline 734406pk

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2016 - 08:30:49 PM »
That set up will work I guess but it's not the best way to fix this timing problem IMO.
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline brasil

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2016 - 03:08:37 AM »
well...that´s probably correct....but what can I do?  If I reduce the timing @ idle  I need to open the trottle blades as far as possible until the screw is all the way in.. ( so that´s not good..)  next thing is to advance up to 20 deg @ idle... but then the starter comes in play.... also the rest of the timing curve is very short... 

Now I hope that everything will work together ...  next week  if the awful rain stops here... )  I will make some test rides....

Greetings Juergen
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016 - 04:09:49 PM by brasil »

Offline 734406pk

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2016 - 09:21:07 AM »
There isn't much else you can do with this ignition system with the limited adjustability. Do you have a starting issue with base timing above 20 deg BTDC?
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2016 - 11:39:23 AM »
It's a balancing act.  The higher the compression and the shorter the cam duration-the slower the advance curve acceleration has to be and the lower the initial starting point has to be.  The total mechanical advance does not normally change a lot-just the starting point and how fast it increases to the total.

That is the simple part :) When we add vacuum advance to a non stock mechanical advance curve, things can get difficult quickly.  Vacuum advance, while complicated at times in non stock situations, should actually be a good thing.  It is further complicated by automatic or manual transmission selection with manual transmission being the easiest because it imposes the least load on the engine and therefore, the least effect on the vacuum of the engine.

In the earlier days, cars used manifold vacuum to operate the vacuum advance.  Low load, high vacuum-more advance, and vice versa.  Then NOX emissions control came along and to lower NOX, you need less advance so factories started producing cars with low initial timing and ported vacuum advance to keep the NOX down at idle and low speed.  This was not good for low speed performance at all but it was good for NOX reduction.

I said vacuum advance was good prior.  It's good because it should increase gas mileage while cruising and produce a much cleaner combustion burn at teh same time.  What makes it complicated are the variables we introduce.

We crank up the initial advance and increase the rate of acceleration the advance curve and we can end up with too much advance at cruise rpms...instead of the desired 50-55 degs of advance, we may end up with 65 degs or more and that brings in light throttle detonation because we lit the fire while the piston was too far down in the hole and combustion pressures are peaking before TDC instead of 15 degs or whatever is optimum for the cylinder head design AFTER TDC.  Nice rattle that is not doing the rings, bearings, etc. any good over the long term. So the knee jerk reaction is by far the simplest...disconnect it.  Running manifold vacuum instead of ported vacuum may make it worse at even lower speeds.

The easy way to fix it is not use vacuum advance.  The best way to fix it is much harder-we have to limit the total amount of vacuum advance allowed as well as how fast it comes on.

With a stick shift, not as much load is placed on the engine at idle when the clutch is depressed and manifold vacuum does not usually suddenly go away with this load so it can really help idle quality on modified engines.  Automatics usually drop the vacuum quite a bit when the car is dropped into gear and the idle quality that was much better in Park can suddenly put into gear.  In this case, manifold vacuum can make a difficult situation worse.  This is aggravated by modifying the engine with longer cam durations, etc.  Top that off with a torque converter that is too tight for the cam to begin with and it can make you want to cry.

It separates the tuners from the guys that read the magazine articles without understanding the total picture.

Now, having said all the above, I wonder what is up with your carburetor.  Having to open the throttle blades all the way makes me think the car is not running on the idle circuits any more but is either on the transition circuit or even higher.  Something seems to be up with that.  Typically, the more modified the engine, the richer it will need to be at idle.  If the idle improves when you choke the engine a bit, then it may simple be too lean for the engine at idle and opening the blades allows it to pull more fuel from elsewhere.


Offline 734406pk

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2016 - 03:01:11 PM »
^^^ Well said, completely encapsulates the issue. If the engine ran OK at 16 deg BTDC and it runs better at 20 deg BTDC, it could run better yet at 24 degrees for example.You never know until you test (tune) it. Total timing with centrifugal must be limited to something around 36 degrees BTDC. The spring tension determines the advance vs rpm curve.  Vacuum advance, if added, is a wild card so to speak. LIGHT LOAD and HIGH RPM it comes into play to increase fuel MPG at cruise highway speeds (May be). Most people (including me) eliminate the vacuum advance feature with a high performance car. I set the base timing as to where the engine runs best with the highest stable manifold vacuum to a given curb idle speed and then limit total timing to 36 deg BTDC @ 3000 rpm. for example. Your timing curve may need to be a little different. :2cents:
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline brasil

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2016 - 05:26:24 PM »
...  thank you for your adviises

I will think about the vacuum advance..    up to 15-16 deg  the enginge cranks real good..( even when hot ) I have a high torque starter...
about the carb..  it is a TQ with 096 primery and 139 secundary jets...  the rods are 1966...  so the carb is running a little richer than Stock...

Greetings Juergen

Offline brasil

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2016 - 01:18:25 PM »
made some Try and error  "TESTS "....

result :   the car love s the OEM Ford springs... ( no Joke ! )  The springs out of a 68  302 Distributor... are a good combo.  The Idle timing is 17 deg. BTDC  the advance is limited to 18 deg...so all in is 35 deg. BTDC.   I used a Standart  VC 185 vacuum can... this brings another 17 deg. advance... but due to light pinging while cruising I had to reduce the  advance ..to 13 deg...   All together the timing is now 48 deg...   ( Not so bad...right ? )

The AFR Numbers are much better now  also.... 13 ish @ idle   and between 11 ( WOT )  and 14.5   Cruise...

Greetings Juergen

Offline 734406pk

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2016 - 07:11:07 PM »
made some Try and error  "TESTS "....

result :   the car love s the OEM Ford springs... ( no Joke ! )  The springs out of a 68  302 Distributor... are a good combo.  The Idle timing is 17 deg. BTDC  the advance is limited to 18 deg...so all in is 35 deg. BTDC.   I used a Standart  VC 185 vacuum can... this brings another 17 deg. advance... but due to light pinging while cruising I had to reduce the  advance ..to 13 deg...   All together the timing is now 48 deg...   ( Not so bad...right ? )

The AFR Numbers are much better now  also.... 13 ish @ idle   and between 11 ( WOT )  and 14.5   Cruise...

Greetings Juergen

 :2thumbs:
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2016 - 12:25:43 AM »
sounds like some solid progress!  If your wot a/f is consistently 11-1, that's pretty rich.  somewhere around 12.5-1 would make more power.  Of course, you could put a turbo on it and be just about dead on as it is!  :D

Good to hear you have the advance dialed in :)

Offline brasil

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2016 - 12:11:25 PM »
The AFR is 11.x @ WOT only..   I will give the airvalve a little more room to open... so the Mixture will lean out at WOT   just a little...so I hope to reach the 12.X ..

Cruising AFR is 14.2- 14.5  Steady..     Idle is around 13.x    Think that is more than o.k.

Accelerating AFR is 12.5

Greetings Juergen

Offline brasil

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2016 - 04:24:26 PM »
went up with the jets...  Now I run 98 primarys... with the 1966 rods...
Seems to be the right direction !  Adjusting the IDLE AFR is way much easier...also I could close the trottle blades

...  one day  I will make that beauty runnin perfekt  :working:

Greetings Juergen

Offline 734406pk

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2016 - 07:43:58 PM »
went up with the jets...  Now I run 98 primarys... with the 1966 rods...
Seems to be the right direction !  Adjusting the IDLE AFR is way much easier...also I could close the trottle blades

...  one day  I will make that beauty runnin perfekt  :working:

Greetings Juergen

Nice progress!
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline brasil

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2016 - 03:31:49 AM »
...  bought a endoscope   ... to look inside the cylinders...  what did I see ??   Flat top pistons...flat like a table...
so I think the former engine builder used all the parts he could get...to raise the CR....??

As you know...my biggest problem is to use the vacuum canister..  if the car is running fine...  and I hook up the VC
..there is always a slight sound  when I drive steady   50-60 mph....   when I go off the accelerater..the sound is gone..  when I hit more  ..the same....sound is gone...   I think it is pinging because of the "high " vacuum.... while
cruising...  the VC starts commin in @ 16 inches   the engine makes around 18-19 inches while crusing..

The only chance  to get rid of the sound is....unhook the VC... but this hurts my milag :(e....

Greetings Juergen

BTW...the AFR Numbers are fine...only WOT is a little rich...but that will be reolved quickly...

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: Timing drives me crazy.....
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2016 - 10:02:48 AM »
Or limit the advance the vacuum canister can provide with a mechanical stop....mentioned this back on June 18 :)