70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion

Author Topic: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion  (Read 66233 times)

Offline usraptr

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #135 on: October 15, 2016 - 08:01:18 PM »
I got the intermediate shaft reclocked so that I could get the cap on; no issues there. While this is pretty simple, you have to reindex the distributor body each time to ensure that the cam and crank signals are aligned, so it take a little work. The pic here is where I started, but I thought I would show it just for fun. For anyone reading this that doesn't know how you reclock it; it takes a big screw driver in the slot, then rotate it and the gear will walk out. Then you turn it and try and get it to drop back in.

You can also use a pair of long needle nose pliers to pull the gear up assembly up, turn so the slot is as close to the crank shaft center line and drop back in.   

Please post how you hook up your Tach wire as I'm having the same problem.   :pullinghair:
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda.  Matching numbers 440 U Code, 4 speed pistol grip, Rallye dash, AM 8 Track, Shaker hood, 15 inch rallye wheels, Dana 60 4.10, Super Track Pak.  One of 134 - 440 "U" coupes codes built in 1970 and one of 100 - 440 Super Track Paks built in 1970.

Restoration pictures at:  http://spanks4thememory.smugmug.com/Cars/70-Cuda/7240639_M24oi#465274575_2MBqW
(Edited 8-1-17)

"usraptr" = United States raptor - bird of prey = United States Bald Eagle.  FYI, somebody else thought of it first so I had to drop the "O" in raptor.




Offline 70chall440

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #136 on: October 15, 2016 - 08:35:58 PM »
I haven't gotten to the tach yet, but I will let you know if I figure it out.

So, I talked to FASTman yesterday and built a base program, today I installed it and eventually got the car started (turns out I was not getting 12v to my switched power side). the car ran very rough initially trying to idle at around 1000 rpm, I touched the throttle and it jumped to around 2K and was struggling, I then noticed that it was pushing coolant out so as I went to shut it down I noticed that cylinders 3 and 5 were red hot (my new $800 Schumachers...  :() After letting the car cool, I refilled the coolant as I am pretty sure it had air in the system after draining which helped with the overheating (temp gauge was around 180). I got the car restarted but it was running really rich/poorly and after a few minutes I saw that cylinders 3.5 and 6 were all beginning to glow so I shut it down again.

At this point I am not sure what I am to do having never worked with EFI software. I pulled the file from the ECU and am looking at it now, the learning table shows pretty much nothing; .1 and .2 @ 1500 rpm with -7.8 to -8.4 PSIA on the MAP; the rest of the chart is blank (all 0.0).

Anyone here running a Holley system?
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #137 on: October 15, 2016 - 10:47:44 PM »
I had run 2 of the Holley Commander 950s as a Tbi and a multiport setups before I switched to EZ-EFI from FAST. I now have 4 of their systems. If you bought the system from Rich, he should be able to help you. I've seen magazine articles where he walks you through getting a FAST XFI up and running.
If you get a hold of Holley, they should be able to remote into your computer and monitor and make changes.
You have a lot of reading to do.
Also, not enough timing makes your manifolds or headers glow, same as with a carb. Good luck with this.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016 - 09:03:47 AM by ShelbyDogg »
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline 70chall440

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #138 on: October 15, 2016 - 11:19:40 PM »
Thanks Rob, I am reading and looking and watching (you tube and anything else). I guess my major issue is that I am not confident with the overall concept of operation. I understand what the software does; however what I am trying to get a grasp on is the procedures; Since you have Holley systems perhaps you can help me; what I "think" is the following (confirm or deny please)

1. you write/obtain a base program
2. you write this to the ECU
3. after getting the car to run, you can bring the program back into the laptop (get from ECU)
4. what you get from the ECU is what occurred when the car was running

If the above is true, when you bring the file back from the ECU, do you save this as a different file name?
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #139 on: October 16, 2016 - 09:22:06 AM »
Yes.
You load the base file with all of the right options on the laptop, then send it to the ECU. You start logging into a file to view later or to save.
But you can also make changes as it is running.
You download the file only if you want to save it to go back to in case you make a change, it runs worse, then you want to go back without starting from the beginning.
All the names could be anything such as Tuesday-1, t-2, t-3, aftertimingmod-1, etc.

Which system did you get?
Just like a 6 pack, try running it with the front and rear TBs off and plated off, so you know vacuum leaks aren't screwing with your idle.  Set your idle air-fuel ratio for smoothest idle and lightest load number.

Check this out for AFRs:
http://www.safrtool.com/SAFR-AFR-values.asp
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016 - 09:24:23 AM by ShelbyDogg »
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline 70chall440

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #140 on: October 16, 2016 - 01:48:46 PM »
Thanks for the information.

Are you asking what software system? If so, it is a Holley 2.0 (if you are asking about the 6 pack, it is a F&B system).
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline 70chall440

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #141 on: October 16, 2016 - 11:52:58 PM »
Update for today

1.   I started off by attempting to time the engine, this was a little difficult as the idle was pretty high (1600-1800) but I had arrived at the same conclusion that the timing was retarded so I advanced it to about 15 degrees (was around 0 – 2).
2.   I noticed that cylinders 5 and 7 were getting hot (changed from 3, 5, and 6). I attributed this to timing and the program trying to figure out what was going on. After a few “start and stops”, the car would only run around 1900 -  2100.
3.   Reading through the instructions (quick start) I focused on the IAC and throttle plate position; it took me a very long time to figure out what they were talking about and how to affect it, but I eventually did. The IAC was at 35% while it was running, I played with the settings in the software and noticed this is where it was set, so I changed it there, then restarted the car and noticed the car did idle down to around 1350-1500; I checked the timing and it seemed to be very retarded; however advancing the timing of course only increased the RPM.
4.   I checked out the throttle plates; they were all seemingly completely closed; it took me a long time to find the right tool to adjust the idle stops (I figured Bruce would have used Hex screws, but turns out that a small flat bladed screw driver did the trick). I adjusted the center TB throttle plates slightly and redid the TPS autoset (as per the instructions). This seemed to help slightly in that the idle remained around 1200 – 1300 but the engine was running pretty rough and still rich.
5.   Throughout this entire effort, the car was running very rich (can still smell it on me, I had to open every door in the shop to breath).
6.   I did have to fix a small fuel leak on the left fuel rail that materialized, but it is ok now.
7.   I believe the timing is still an issue and am having a difficult time stabilizing it or arriving at a point where I think it is really relevant. Several times it would start hard like it was retarded, but when advanced it would pop through the exhaust.
8.   On a positive note, it does rev smoothly.

Some questions;

1.   When you make changes on the laptop when connected (online), does this automatically take effect in the ECU?
2.   I notice that when I restart the car after being off for a little while; it will not sync stating that the ECU is different than the laptop. What I have been doing is hitting “send to ECU” to get them to sync.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #142 on: October 17, 2016 - 12:09:20 AM »
I hope you aren't asking me anything, since I can't help you with the Holley. Mine are all Fast EZ systems running stock electronic distributors on the 340 and 440, and the MSD ignition controller on the G3 Hemi. You better get on the Holley tech forums or get help from FB.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline 70chall440

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #143 on: October 17, 2016 - 12:16:56 AM »
I am asking anyone who might know.

I received some more information from Rich, so I will apply that when I am able. Definitely a steep learning curve here....  >:(
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline 70chall440

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #144 on: October 17, 2016 - 11:52:12 PM »
Today was eventful; started off with a discussion with Rich in which he believed my IAC was wired incorrectly requiring me to switch 2 wires. I accomplished pretty quickly and attempted to continue to adjust the program. The problem I was/am having is that when you bump the throttle, it revs to about 2K and the IAC remains open. This prompted another call to Rich (burning his phone up.... :bigsmile:). We determined that perhaps the TPS autoset wasn't correct meaning the ECU could not determine where the throttle was sitting. However after talking to Rich standing outside my shop, when I turned around I noticed fuel leaking out of the tank area; after some investigation I determined that it was coming out of about the worst possible spot; right at the pump, meaning I needed to remove the tank.

So, I get the tank off, inspect everything and arrive at the conclusion is that perhaps I didn't have one of the 3 fittings tight enough, so I disassemble all of the fittings, cleaned them and reinstalled them. I also determined that I needed a window in the cross member so I could actually see and perhaps get to the fittings, so I cut out a piece and made a panel that is removable. I then reinstalled the tank and tried it again; guess what? Still leaks, like spraying type leak... so out it comes again, but the difference this time is I could actually see where it was leaking which was at the first fitting I had screwed into the pump. I removed the fittings again and replaced the leaking one with what I had which is slightly longer. I reassembled everything and then tested it on the floor; no leaks thus far.

Tomorrow, the tank goes back in and I get to start again. Oh, I almost forgot, as I was under the car/engine I looked up and discovered the #8 plug wire was off as was the #2; wonder why it was running like crap...  :roflsmiley:
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #145 on: October 18, 2016 - 08:21:40 AM »
Looks like you are using that liquid pipe sealant at your joints. Could your gasoline be acting like a solvent to seep in and cause leaks? I've been using teflon tape on all of my NPT joints for EFI forever and don't get leaks.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline 70chall440

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #146 on: October 18, 2016 - 12:10:55 PM »
I don't think so because I am using Blue Monster thread sealant which is rated for gasoline and have used it on everything; so far only this one area had problems. I think the problem I had was a result of bad threads on the adapter.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline 70chall440

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #147 on: October 19, 2016 - 05:22:06 PM »
Looks like you are using that liquid pipe sealant at your joints. Could your gasoline be acting like a solvent to seep in and cause leaks? I've been using teflon tape on all of my NPT joints for EFI forever and don't get leaks.

I have come to believe you are correct, that the pipe dope was not the ticket. Perhaps with the right threads it is, however in my case I don't think so. I ended up removing all of the brass NPT mess and installed a -6 AN fitting directly to the pump outlet as it has a long threaded shaft. I wrapped this with Teflon tape and it sealed. I cannot say it would not have with the pipe dope as I have other fittings with it that do not leak, but in this case it did.

I am now fighting other demons as well. Seems the IAC and TPS are not working as they are supposed to (well the IAC anyways). Also, the car will not start with the key as I believe in removing all of the factory ignition, I have disabled the "run" wire for the ignition somewhere.

Got to love this....
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #148 on: October 19, 2016 - 05:27:38 PM »
Hook your brown and blue wire together at the ballast resistor and get rid of the resistor. These wires together now become your switched 12v wire. These 2 overlap in the switch so you don't lose signal when switching from start to run.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline 70chall440

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Re: 70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion
« Reply #149 on: October 19, 2016 - 05:35:09 PM »
I will give that a try, THANKS.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)