70 Challenger RT - EFI 6 Pack Conversion

[70chall440]

Not on that one...

[Cazbah362]

70Chall440 - Very nice write up, thank you seems you hit many of the pitfalls I have encountered.  I did the Tanks setup and had a few issues, the largest was a partial blockage of the return line.  Fuel pressure hit above 110 and blew of the top of my regulator while car was running, bit scary at the time.
I applaud your fabrication skills all around, and especially with Denso brackets. For my Denso install, I bought it directly from 440Source. After reading this post, I realize the 60amps may not be a enough so I will keep this thread as a future resource for sourcing parts.
Your steering column connector problem you encountered are also one of my issues.  Since I have a few wiring gremlins all around, I have started a "deux over" for most of my wiring systems.

Thanks for the nice work and all the post's, they do help - And a thanks to the "community" input, great information

CP

[70chall440]

70Chall440 - Very nice write up, thank you seems you hit many of the pitfalls I have encountered.  I did the Tanks setup and had a few issues, the largest was a partial blockage of the return line.  Fuel pressure hit above 110 and blew of the top of my regulator while car was running, bit scary at the time.
I applaud your fabrication skills all around, and especially with Denso brackets. For my Denso install, I bought it directly from 440Source. After reading this post, I realize the 60amps may not be a enough so I will keep this thread as a future resource for sourcing parts.
Your steering column connector problem you encountered are also one of my issues.  Since I have a few wiring gremlins all around, I have started a "deux over" for most of my wiring systems.

Thanks for the nice work and all the post's, they do help - And a thanks to the "community" input, great information

CP

CP - you are vey welcome, it is exactly the reason I do these threads to hopefully inspire and/or help someone else. Your regulator going terminal sounds like a bit of unexpected excitement.. From my research 60 amps is on the very low side of what you need depending on what else is being run; if you do not have an electric fan or a big stereo it might be ok, but only barely. A lot has to do with how it is wired as well to include wire size (the bigger the better to a degree). That under dash/steering column wiring is a very weak link in the system; I highly recommend going through it and at worst ensure there are clean solid connections. A main problem is that the 10 gauge red wire is right at the point on the connector that has the connector lock, so when the wire gets hot and begins to melt the connector, it damages the lock and subsequently it loses connectivity on all of the wires. This is the reason I ditched it and installed weather pack connectors; much better connection and can withstand more amperage. I have and continue to use weather pack connectors everywhere I can. A bit of a learning curve but the results are worth it.

BTW - what BN were you with? I have worked with 2nd BN quite a lot here in WA but I know guys from 1 and 3 as well.

[Cazbah362]

70Chall - I was in 3rd, 88-92, got out right before Mogadishu, and retired from the Army Guard in 2012 as CW4.  Fun times, started as 11BB4, ended as a 255A with a stint as a Dust-Off pilot.  Jack of many trades and lots of cools stuff, all fun to look back on but never stare.  What Group was home for you?  By some of the posts assuming B4? 

As for the column, agree the wires are a heavy gauge, was one of my concerns on transitioning to a weather pack connector to correct the weak-link area.  As for the weather packs, they are a great tool, one I think I over use at times, and will probably get used a lot when I do the wiring "deaux over." At this time I don't run any extra power items, so shouldn't be a short term concern.  I agree as I start adding items, power will be a concern, especially with battery being in the trunk and eventual transition to full EFI. 

As for the learning curve - agree!  Nice to see some forging the way.  I was tracking a Megasquirt build on the Charger forum (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,99432.0.html) For tuning, you may want to check it out, some good input which you may have worked through already. 

Keep up on the post's - and very nice Challenger

CP

[70chall440]

CP,

I spent all my time with 1st SFG retiring as a CW3. During my career I was a 62E (construction equip mech), 12B, 95B, 11C (82nd), 18E, 18F and ended as a 180A in 04 (started in 78).

I have looked at Mega Squirt for my other car, 73 Cuda with a stroked 340 and EFI 6 pack, I currently have a FAST EZ system for it but am now reconsidering it. I have been building this car for about 10 years and just painted it this year. I distracted myself with this Challenger thinking I needed to swap out the carb 6 pack for the EFI as sort of a trial run for the Cuda. I have a build on here for that car that you can look at if you are bored;

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=108127.0

[YellowThumper]

Congrats on getting it sorted. That is one bad A.. setup.
I have a loooong Megasquirt transition going. Also have  followed brobably the same Charger thread noted above.  Had to take a step back from it for some sanity.

Mike

[70chall440]

Congrats on getting it sorted. That is one bad A.. setup.
I have a loooong Megasquirt transition going. Also have  followed brobably the same Charger thread noted above.  Had to take a step back from it for some sanity.

Mike

Thanks, I wish the weather would cooperate so I can get some tuning done. I am looking possibly for a different control system for my Cuda, but am not sure I am up to the Mega Squirt system

[70chall440]

Well it has been a while since I did anything with the Challenger, mainly due to weather and other commitments. I went out yesterday and started it (definitely starts/runs better with the EFI); unfortunately there remain a number of issues;

1. neither my mechanical nor my electric temp gauges work. The mech is a cheap auto parts store variety but worked fine until I installed the EFI, then it worked for a while but eventually died. The electric stock unit worked until I installed the EFI system which required me to length the sending wire (which I checked for continuity). Not sure what is happening here but it is frustrating.

2. I could not sync the laptop up with the ECU, it said it was connected but I wasn't receiving any data. I am thinking this might be a comp issue but am not sure. I have to use a USB extension cable so that is suspect as well (even though brand new 3.0 version). in the current config, I am running an extension from the ECU cable into which I am plugging the 3.0 cable (essentially 3 cables in all), I am going to remove the extension (which is female-female) and replace it with just one female to male version. The cable worked previously and I am using a old laptop so there are a number of variables.

3. upon driving the car for a while, I notice the front end needs to be aligned (again) but I will address that later as right now it isn't all that bad.

4. the car seems very under powered for a 440; it should spin the tires off the rims but it sure seems like a dog. Given I have never been able to really drive the car all that much, I am not sure what it is or isn't capable of so for now I will just work on it running.

5. will not shift into 3rd gear; it bangs 2nd well but no Bueno to 3rd. I am running a Lokar cable which I have come to despise as is a PIA to set up. The instructions were/are not relevant so I am at the "adjust, drive, repeat" method. It needs to be tighter I am sure as I started where the instructions say but looking back on this, when I did get it somewhat sorted previously it had to be very tight.

All in all I have to say up front that what seemed like a good idea has sucked the life right out of me. I have been working on these cars since I was a kid and am reaching a point where I am not sure if I want to keep going. I am beginning to think I like the "idea" of having the car more than actually having and working on it. Perhaps this is just a phase and I will get past it, perhaps not, we will see.

Anyone have any information on using a USB extension cable? I would think there is a point where it can be too long.

[ragtopdodge]

What's your AF ratio?

Maybe you're in some "safe mode" and you're overly rich==no power.

[70chall440]

Not really sure at the moment, somewhere around 13 -14 at idle I think. I need to get the cable/sync deal sorted before I am sure.

[YellowThumper]

Hopefully you work past the burnout stage. I totally understand. I find that mechanical assembly and fabrication is extremely fulfilling because it is tangible. With wiring and electronics you don't get the same affect. That is why carbs are still so prevalent. Bolt on and go instant gratification. Keep plugging and you will get there. And when set up properly you will get far more extended enjoyment out of it. Simply due to the reliability aspect.
That's my end goal. Somewhat crazy hp all the whIle being tame enough to want to be driving it over my daily.

Mike.

[70chall440]

Appreciate it. Perhaps when the weather changes a little more it will have a more positive affect on my automobile interest/outlook. I am sure I will get back on it, its just going to take a little while.

[Cudakiller70]

Appreciate it. Perhaps when the weather changes a little more it will have a more positive affect on my automobile interest/outlook. I am sure I will get back on it, its just going to take a little while.

Agree on the weather. It's to cold in the garage so I'm doin honey do's inside.

[Cazbah362]

70, Happy to hear I am not the only one who gets the blues on these projects, a nice thing is you can drive yours right now.  As for the USB attenuation is 5 meters or roughly blow 20 feet.  And, dasiy-chaining them will decrease the range, not like Claymore's and other pyro, your Signals guy would be smacking you.  Also, sounds like the laptop is questionable as well, 2.0 to 3.0 needs to be in the architecture, so make sure you have 3.0 system, cables etc.  They are reverse compatible down meaning a 3.0 can use a 2.0 cable but you may have issues the other way.  I am assuming you are using a USB to RS-232 connection, seems the way many of the EFI systems are, so you have to daisy-chain.  This gets sketchy, I know I didn't help in this babble, the point is sounds like your Point #2 (ECU Connection) may be a culprit, so take some time to validate it or it may be the ECU?. 

Good luck, if I can help PM - I am solid lurker on the weekends, usually out on weekdays.

Charles

[70chall440]

70, Happy to hear I am not the only one who gets the blues on these projects, a nice thing is you can drive yours right now.  As for the USB attenuation is 5 meters or roughly blow 20 feet.  And, dasiy-chaining them will decrease the range, not like Claymore's and other pyro, your Signals guy would be smacking you.  Also, sounds like the laptop is questionable as well, 2.0 to 3.0 needs to be in the architecture, so make sure you have 3.0 system, cables etc.  They are reverse compatible down meaning a 3.0 can use a 2.0 cable but you may have issues the other way.  I am assuming you are using a USB to RS-232 connection, seems the way many of the EFI systems are, so you have to daisy-chain.  This gets sketchy, I know I didn't help in this babble, the point is sounds like your Point #2 (ECU Connection) may be a culprit, so take some time to validate it or it may be the ECU?. 

Good luck, if I can help PM - I am solid lurker on the weekends, usually out on weekdays.

Charles

Charles - thanks for the information/advice and pretty much what I was/am thinking (I am the signals guy.. 18E). The current arrangement did work, so I am currently under the opinion that it is a hardware (comp) issue in the sense that I need to reboot the comp. My previous comments were based on a very short/quick situation wherein I needed to move the car to get access to my lift and thought I would do some data logging at the same time. I should have rebooted the comp before attempting to sync it but I didn't. I do believe that the cable situation is suspect and will correct that soon; I am going to replace the extension with another USB cable that has a male & female end so I can connect directly to the ECU cable (which is male). Hopefully this will reduce that issue as well. The ECU cable about 3' (1 meter) and I am going to add a 6' cable which should allow me to position the laptop on the pass seat or if needed even outside the car.