Another pushrod question

Author Topic: Another pushrod question  (Read 2577 times)

Offline Challenger in NC

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Another pushrod question
« on: July 21, 2016 - 01:09:42 PM »
This is my first engine build so I’d like to run the basic method I used to determine the pushrod length and get some feedback.

1. Adjusted roller tip setscrew so approx. 1 thread was exposed on underside of the roller body.
2. Mounted hydraulic lifter in bore.
3. Used adjustable pushrod (ball on both ends) to measure effective length between roller tip and lifter. I was careful during adjustment to make sure pushrod did not move plunger. Rotated engine to ensure lifter was on heel of camshaft.
4. Took measurements on 4 different valves (2 on each end of head) and arrived at 8.81”. I then added 0.040” to this measurement (provided by Lunati) and came up with a final length of 8.853”.
5. Called Smith Bros., discussed this with sales tech. and purchased a single pushrod (ball and cup) to verify length. Ordered a 5/16” dia. Rod with 0.083” wall.
6. Installed pushrod and backed off setscrew until pushrod just started to deflect lifter plunger. Setscrew now shows no exposed threads (due to 0.040” that was added to length). Rotated engined, checked pattern on valve tip.

Should I have left the setscrew with the 1 exposed thread and let the pushrod pre-load the lifter by the 0.040”?  What else should I check?

I will definitely need to shim the rocker shaft (side to side) to get the roller tips centered over the valves. I will also check other head before ordering a full set of pushrods.




Offline 734406pk

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Re: Another pushrod question
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2016 - 10:18:58 PM »
This is my first engine build so I’d like to run the basic method I used to determine the pushrod length and get some feedback.

1. Adjusted roller tip setscrew so approx. 1 thread was exposed on underside of the roller body.
2. Mounted hydraulic lifter in bore.
3. Used adjustable pushrod (ball on both ends) to measure effective length between roller tip and lifter. I was careful during adjustment to make sure pushrod did not move plunger. Rotated engine to ensure lifter was on heel of camshaft.
4. Took measurements on 4 different valves (2 on each end of head) and arrived at 8.81”. I then added 0.040” to this measurement (provided by Lunati) and came up with a final length of 8.853”.
5. Called Smith Bros., discussed this with sales tech. and purchased a single pushrod (ball and cup) to verify length. Ordered a 5/16” dia. Rod with 0.083” wall.
6. Installed pushrod and backed off setscrew until pushrod just started to deflect lifter plunger. Setscrew now shows no exposed threads (due to 0.040” that was added to length). Rotated engined, checked pattern on valve tip.

Should I have left the setscrew with the 1 exposed thread and let the pushrod pre-load the lifter by the 0.040”?  What else should I check?

I will definitely need to shim the rocker shaft (side to side) to get the roller tips centered over the valves. I will also check other head before ordering a full set of pushrods.

Typo on line 3? Ball and Ball pushrod?
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline Challenger in NC

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Re: Another pushrod question
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2016 - 12:08:36 AM »
Typo on line 3? Ball and Ball pushrod?

All I had was the ball on both ends adjustable type pushrod. I used that to obtain the effective length and carefully checked it several times.

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Another pushrod question
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2016 - 12:19:18 AM »
sounds like you are right on to me , he lifter will need preload so adjusted properly approx 1 thread should be visable , other than trying to shim the shafts over the valve tip

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Offline Challenger in NC

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Re: Another pushrod question
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2016 - 10:06:49 AM »
sounds like you are right on to me , he lifter will need preload so adjusted properly approx 1 thread should be visable , other than trying to shim the shafts over the valve tip

Thanks. I'll adjust the setscrew back down and also check a few more locations before ordering.

Offline 734406pk

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Re: Another pushrod question
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2016 - 09:12:40 PM »
I would recommend shimming the rocker shaft to get that contact point on-center of the valve stem first, then measure and order push rods second. Shimming the rocker shaft will change the PR length. Most cup and ball rockers spec 1-3 threads showing, as not to obstruct the lube oil passage to the PR. Remove a adjusting screw and you should see the oil passage inside the rocker.
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline Challenger in NC

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Re: Another pushrod question
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2016 - 01:39:11 AM »
I would recommend shimming the rocker shaft to get that contact point on-center of the valve stem first, then measure and order push rods second. Shimming the rocker shaft will change the PR length. Most cup and ball rockers spec 1-3 threads showing, as not to obstruct the lube oil passage to the PR. Remove a adjusting screw and you should see the oil passage inside the rocker.

So you are saying to shim the rocker shaft up to improve the wipe pattern on top of the stem?

Offline 734406pk

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Re: Another pushrod question
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2016 - 06:14:31 PM »
Yes. Moving the wipe pattern to the center of the valves will reduce side loading to the valve stem and guide. The pic of the wipe pattern looks just off center slightly. Here is one link for the shims you need:

 http://store.440source.com/Rocker-Shaft-Shims-pkg-of-30/productinfo/127-1020/
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline Challenger in NC

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Re: Another pushrod question
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2016 - 07:09:44 PM »
Yes. Moving the wipe pattern to the center of the valves will reduce side loading to the valve stem and guide. The pic of the wipe pattern looks just off center slightly. Here is one link for the shims you need:

 http://store.440source.com/Rocker-Shaft-Shims-pkg-of-30/productinfo/127-1020/


Thanks

Offline 734406pk

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Re: Another pushrod question
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2016 - 08:00:20 PM »
Thanks

 :thumbsup:

 I don't think you will need add very much shim thickness there to get it perfectly centered. I'm not sure which roller rockers you have but most use 3/8-24 adjusting screws. If this is the thread pitch that you have (easy to check with a 3/8-24 nut), 1 turn equals .042" of an inch (1.00/24). Zero lash at one thread showing will yield .042" preload with 2 threads showing for example. No dial indicator needed! Good luck with your engine build! You are doing a nice job there!
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline Challenger in NC

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Re: Another pushrod question
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2016 - 08:11:07 PM »
:thumbsup:

 I don't think you will need add very much shim thickness there to get it perfectly centered. I'm not sure which roller rockers you have but most use 3/8-24 adjusting screws. If this is the thread pitch that you have (easy to check with a 3/8-24 nut), 1 turn equals .042" of an inch (1.00/24). Zero lash at one thread showing will yield .042" preload with 2 threads showing for example. No dial indicator needed! Good luck with your engine build! You are doing a nice job there!

Rockers are from 440 Source so I 'll probably just order a shim set from them. Thanks again for the input.

Offline 734406pk

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Re: Another pushrod question
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2016 - 08:30:52 PM »
They looked like 440 source with the billet hold-downs. Remember that these rockers need to be shimmed for .015"-.030" side clearance if you haven't already done so. Without shims, they are usually very loose. Here is a link for the shims if needed:

http://store.440source.com/Rocker-Shaft-015-Shims-approx-36-New/productinfo/105-1018/

These work better, they are nice and flat:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-3690896

Most engine builds will need 2 packages.
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline Challenger in NC

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Re: Another pushrod question
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2016 - 09:21:17 PM »
They looked like 440 source with the billet hold-downs. Remember that these rockers need to be shimmed for .015"-.030" side clearance if you haven't already done so. Without shims, they are usually very loose. Here is a link for the shims if needed:

http://store.440source.com/Rocker-Shaft-015-Shims-approx-36-New/productinfo/105-1018/

These work better, they are nice and flat:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-3690896

Most engine builds will need 2 packages.


I already had the flat shims, but ordered the pedestal shims today.  :thumbsup:

Offline 734406pk

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Re: Another pushrod question
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2016 - 10:11:54 PM »
I already had the flat shims, but ordered the pedestal shims today.  :thumbsup:

Good deal!! Post some pics! :2thumbs:
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline barnett468

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Re: Another pushrod question
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2016 - 03:49:51 AM »
So you are saying to shim the rocker shaft up to improve the wipe pattern on top of the stem?

No, you want the pattern to be as narrow as possible and the roller will then be wherever it will be on the valve tip.