Something weird going on

Author Topic: Something weird going on  (Read 46646 times)

Offline 70chall440

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 6484
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #120 on: November 18, 2016 - 01:36:13 PM »
I have read through your entire thread and it sounds like you have investigated almost everything, except perhaps your charging system. I know this sounds dumb, however in my efforts with my EFI 6 pack I have been doing a lot of reading on electrical systems in general and I have noted a number of instances where the authors are very adamant about the charging system and associated wiring. Once you start the car, it is running off the alternator; if there are issues there your MSD will not be firing correctly, hence running issues. I am not saying this is definitely "it", but I would recommend you check this out carefully amongst the other things you are doing.

when you started this thread, any car guy would have immediately said "vacuum leak" followed by carb issues, however since you have investigated all of these things and the situation seems to remain unchanged, it has to be something else or perhaps a combination.

good luck  :bigsmile:
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)




Offline cudabob496

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #121 on: November 18, 2016 - 05:23:22 PM »
I have read through your entire thread and it sounds like you have investigated almost everything, except perhaps your charging system. I know this sounds dumb, however in my efforts with my EFI 6 pack I have been doing a lot of reading on electrical systems in general and I have noted a number of instances where the authors are very adamant about the charging system and associated wiring. Once you start the car, it is running off the alternator; if there are issues there your MSD will not be firing correctly, hence running issues. I am not saying this is definitely "it", but I would recommend you check this out carefully amongst the other things you are doing.

when you started this thread, any car guy would have immediately said "vacuum leak" followed by carb issues, however since you have investigated all of these things and the situation seems to remain unchanged, it has to be something else or perhaps a combination.

good luck  :bigsmile:

yes, refocusing on elelctrical system again. Two separate tests have shown the new coil to be a problem. Been charging up battery between tests to make sure at full capacity.  Thanks.  also, buying another multimeter to verify my readings.

72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline 70chall440

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 6484
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #122 on: November 19, 2016 - 12:15:29 AM »
You will find it, just have to pay the dues your car wants, I am paying them constantly...  :bigsmile:
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline cudabob496

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #123 on: November 19, 2016 - 01:51:32 AM »
You will find it, just have to pay the dues your car wants, I am paying them constantly...  :bigsmile:

as they say, "That's hotroddin"

bummer is we have had a beautiful 2 months of fall weather, and the Cuda has been 
stuck in the garage the whole time. fortunately the other car works, or
I would be a basket case! Put new heads on the Trans Am, and it started and ran
when I turned the key!
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline 734406pk

  • Andy
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1716
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #124 on: November 19, 2016 - 10:37:00 AM »
 With your engine set up I would expect an idle speed of 1000-1200 rpm, lower than that can be unstable IMO. What idle rpm are you looking for? Check your manifold vacuum at idle (where the engine still runs) and compare the reading to the primary power valve number. Also check your AFR at the rpm point where the engine wants to stall.
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline cudabob496

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #125 on: November 19, 2016 - 01:51:09 PM »
With your engine set up I would expect an idle speed of 1000-1200 rpm, lower than that can be unstable IMO. What idle rpm are you looking for? Check your manifold vacuum at idle (where the engine still runs) and compare the reading to the primary power valve number. Also check your AFR at the rpm point where the engine wants to stall.

yes, thanks, that is where I normally run idle, if not a little higher. idle vacuum in around 11.
Use a 6.5 PV.  When engine was stalling AFR was around 14 to17. thanks
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline 734406pk

  • Andy
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1716
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #126 on: November 19, 2016 - 11:06:45 PM »
yes, thanks, that is where I normally run idle, if not a little higher. idle vacuum in around 11.
Use a 6.5 PV.  When engine was stalling AFR was around 14 to17. thanks

Your idle speed and manifold vacuum is normal. The AFR reading is indicating a lean condition. The Holley 850 DP has a 4 corner idle circuit? Set the throttles plate(s) to get the transfer slot(s) to spec and synchronize all (4?) the idle mixture screws to 2 turns out from lightly seated. This should be rich or at least have an effect on the AFR. The PCV valve tested good? 

1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline cudabob496

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #127 on: November 19, 2016 - 11:39:46 PM »
yes, thanks, that is where I normally run idle, if not a little higher. idle vacuum in around 11.
Use a 6.5 PV.  When engine was stalling AFR was around 14 to17. thanks

Your idle speed and manifold vacuum is normal. The AFR reading is indicating a lean condition. The Holley 850 DP has a 4 corner idle circuit? Set the throttles plate(s) to get the transfer slot(s) to spec and synchronize all (4?) the idle mixture screws to 2 turns out from lightly seated. This should be rich or at least have an effect on the AFR. The PCV valve tested good?

yes, PCV good. All 4 corner Idle circuit vavles at 1.5 open.
Primary slot tiny bit open.  Secondary slot closed, as it has always been. Throttle plates all have small holes.
Was running perfect with these setting until 3 months ago, when i now suspect the coil started going bad. Will have
new coil Monday. Will report.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline 734406pk

  • Andy
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1716
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #128 on: November 20, 2016 - 05:01:40 PM »
 What model/list number Holley carb do you have BTW?
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline cudabob496

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #129 on: November 20, 2016 - 05:12:10 PM »
What model/list number Holley carb do you have BTW?

not known, as choke tower cut off

Purchased 16 years ago as a Holley 850 DP with annular boosters.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline cudabob496

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #130 on: November 22, 2016 - 10:00:44 PM »
determined coil was good, and my multimeter was off, though the new coil secondary side
resistence is 5.8K ohms, instead of the factory spec of 4.7K ohms. bought a new multimeter as well.
Now shipping my 6AL digital box off to MSD for evaluation.

used this test procedure:

If triggering with the Magnetic Pickup:
1. Make sure the ignition switch is in the “Off” position.
2. Remove the coil wire from the distributor cap and set the terminal approximately 1/2" from ground.
3. Disconnect the MSD magnetic pickup wires from the distributor.
4. Turn the ignition to the On position. Do not crank the engine.
5. With a small jumper wire, short the MSD’s Green and Violet magnetic pickup wires together several
times. Each time you break this short, a spark should jump from the coil wire to ground. If spark
is present, the ignition is working properly. If there is no spark skip to step 6.
6. If there is no spark:
A. Inspect all of the wiring.
B. Substitute another coil and repeat the test. If there is now spark, the coil is at fault.
C. If there is still no spark, check to make sure there are 12 volts on the small Red wire from the
MSD when the key is in the On position. If 12 volts are not present, find another switched 12
volt source and repeat the test.
D. If, after following the test procedures and inspecting all of the wiring, there is still no spark, the
MSD Ignition is in need of repair. See the Warranty and Service section for information.

oh, need to verify 12v on small red wire. Do have 12v on large red wire power supply.
Yep, got 12v on small red wire.

.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016 - 02:06:52 AM by cudabob496 »
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline HP_Cuda

  • Hit the skinny little pedal on the right!
  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 5268
  • Mopar or No Car!
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #131 on: November 23, 2016 - 01:27:23 PM »

Hey Bob.

I just found out something that might help you. If you are running a MSD distributor with the 6AL box then you need to isolate the purple/green wire from all other wires. Any bleed over will screw with the firing of the distributor.

Don't ask me how I know.

B
1970 Cuda Clone 440 4 speed - sublime green
1970 Cuda 383 4 speed - yellow - SOLD

Offline cudabob496

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #132 on: November 23, 2016 - 02:36:01 PM »
Hey Bob.

I just found out something that might help you. If you are running a MSD distributor with the 6AL box then you need to isolate the purple/green wire from all other wires. Any bleed over will screw with the firing of the distributor.

Don't ask me how I know.

B

thanks, good to know. will keep an eye out

looking back, when I started having the problem, the car would idle at around 200 rpm before stalling.
Seems only a bad 6AL box could make an engine behave like that.  The 6AL box is off to MSD today.
If this doesn't solve the problem, I'm giving the Cuda away!  (just kidding)
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline 734406pk

  • Andy
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1716
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #133 on: November 23, 2016 - 08:44:53 PM »
the car would idle at around 200 rpm before stalling.

200 rpm idle? is this a typo?
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline cudabob496

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Something weird going on
« Reply #134 on: November 23, 2016 - 09:06:19 PM »
the car would idle at around 200 rpm before stalling.

200 rpm idle? is this a typo?

no typo, that is true, it would sit there and shake around with the rpm needle shaking at around 200 rpm.
Thats why I initially thought the MSD box was the culprit. And I told MSD of this behavior, and they said
their MSD box would not cause that.  But what if rev limiter was failing or something. Now when the needle was around 200,
was the engine at 200 rpm? Not sure, but might have been. Engine was struggling to not die.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000