Author Topic: What is the best Aftermarket Suspension System for my 71 572 Hemi Cuda Restomod  (Read 12451 times)

Offline CUDA JAS

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Do you have picture of the cross shaft on the steering box?


Sure...the cross shaft is the large nut with the Allen screw a the top of the steering box.



loosen the large lock nut and tighten the Allen screw in.

Yup. 1/4 turn at most, I,d suggest 1/8 turn increments... If you get it to tight the car will not want to go straight... With what you describe it's close but some minor adjusting will help quite a bit....


This is good advice!!

74 'cuda 360/727



Gearhead: car nut, automotive enthusiast, one who loves hot rods, muscle cars, hot trucks, burnin' rubber and neck snapping performance. 

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Offline BobBejeski

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I saw this on a re run of GRAVEYARD CARZ.     One of his customers demanded a Magnus Force Coilover front suspension.  Anyone have any experience or opinions of these??  I know that rack & pinion is in front which I believe still messes up the Ackerman Angle concept,   but overall, still want to get opinions. 

  -Bob

 

Offline jordan

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i tightened up my steering box by 1/8 turn and it is MUCH better!  I may go just a tiny bit more to get it as near perfect as i can,  It was totally worth the 5 minutes to do it.  Thanks for the suggestion.  This is why I love this site.   :bananasmi
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Offline HP2

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Any aftermarket suspension with a  R&P front steer has been set up to have fair to decent ackerman. Flipping to stock steering arms forward to use a rack is what produces reverse ackerman, which is a nightmare to drive.

Magnumforce is probably the first company that was mass producing  coil over kits for mopars. I recall seeing advertisements for them as early as 1991. However, their earliest efforts and their base system still offered today, bolts directly to the shock towers with no direct reinforcement. This means over time and with use, the inner fender begin to collapse in and will pinch the hood.  They now  offer an extra price kit that provides down tube to reinforce the shock towers. They also have produced a new kit called the transformer which is a huge, bulky looking thing made from box tubing to address some of the shortcoming of their tubular system and  to make a much sleeker looking bolt in solution.

Since you are still digging at aftermarket systems don't forget to look at these as well;

XV Engineering. http://xvengineering.com/  whose coil over suspension is an aluminum square tube frame using C6 Corvette parts and a very robust 3 link rear design. User Finoke here on CC.com has one of these under his Cuda. Look for his posts on it. Well designed system but not without its own quirks and issues.

Gerst Suspension; http://www.gerstsuspensions.com/  a recent  addition to the tubular offerings that are out there. They build their stuff out of .25 wall everything, so the  do not drop as much weight as many other systems, but are hoping to achieve OEM longevity. My fear with this would be that now the  heavyweight system will now beat the car into submission while suspension parts remain intact.

Control Freak Suspension ; http://www.freakride.com/ a complete rip off of  Alterkation only done in square tubing. All the same issues as are found with Alterk.

If I may offer an observation and recommendation...you are obviously building a very nice car and dumping a fair amount of money into. I think your shop is pushing for you to drop a similar percentage of coin on your suspension as you have dropped on your driveline because  such an awesome engine deserves an awesome suspension, and I'll grant you all the coil over systems offer a substantial amount of impressive appearance and perceived engineering. It also reflects positively on your shop when you take your car out and people ooooh and aaahh over it. This is very good PR for them and you.

On the flip side, you are installing an Elephant into a mid sized pony car. Chrysler did not gain this term of endearment on the Hemi because it is a lightweight. It is one of the largest and heaviest gasoline engine Chrysler ever put on four wheels. Functionality and durability had to be hallmarks of the original design of the systems put underneath this engine . The dealer networks had to support these beasts for a year after the sale, so  durability was a hallmark. Because engineering was a Chrysler hallmark, the geometry and adjustability of the original suspension systems Chrysler used far ahead of its competition in the day and is actually still  very refined by modern standards.

Nearly all coil over systems offer a few benefits over the stock system. Lighter weight, inexpensive spring prices, a multitude of spring choices, and a very sexy appearance. In the racing world, these are all primary considerations  in increasing speed and reducing e.t. They also come with some drawback like increased turning radius,  light duty components, and while they are built on sound engineering principles, lack the  millions of miles of validation that went into the OEM systems.

By contrast, the OEM suspension is well established and decidedly old school in appearance. It offers the right mix of durability yet is not so heavy duty as to compromise road hazards with  chassis integrity. The original mopar design offers nearly as much adjustability and has a track proven record on cars running into the single digit arena. Drawbacks to it are its overall weight, spring rates are not widely varied and are expensive to buy, and its adjustability requires digging extensively into mother's publications to fully understand how to  adjust it all and dial it in.

You have stated this is a predominately street oriented car with the occasional trip down the 1320. I heartily recommend sticking with the stock based system in this application.  This offers road going durability to stand up the real world. It offers readily available replacement parts. It has access to those key components to allow the adjustability you would want on a bracket racer. It offers the consistentcy you  absolutely need in bracket racing without chasing multiple adjustments and changes. When combined with some high quality shocks and a  radial friendly alignment, the OEM system can feel on par with any modern car.

That isn't to discount the  coil over systems. If you are a tinkerer and want to play with adjustments they may be the ticket. If the roads where you live are well maintained, then you may not have durability concerns. They offer a range of spring choices in 50# increments which mean you can precisely dial in teh  desired level of comfort and performance and by comparison to t-bars, are not expensive at all. And even I'll admit they look great and can be a great compliment to a new build.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2016 - 12:30:13 PM by HP2 »

Offline 1 Wild R/T

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Any aftermarket suspension with a  R&P front steer has been set up to have fair to decent ackerman. Flipping to stock steering arms forward to use a rack is what produces reverse ackerman, which is a nightmare to drive.

Magnumforce is probably the first company that was mass producing  coil over kits for mopars. I recall seeing advertisements for them as early as 1991. However, their earliest efforts and their base system still offered today, bolts directly to the shock towers with no direct reinforcement. This means over time and with use, the inner fender begin to collapse in and will pinch the hood.  They now  offer an extra price kit that provides down tube to reinforce the shock towers. They also have produced a new kit called the transformer which is a huge, bulky looking thing made from box tubing to address some of the shortcoming of their tubular system and  to make a much sleeker looking bolt in solution.

Since you are still digging at aftermarket systems don't forget to look at these as well;

XV Engineering. http://xvengineering.com/  whose coil over suspension is an aluminum square tube frame using C6 Corvette parts and a very robust 3 link rear design. User Finoke here on CC.com has one of these under his Cuda. Look for his posts on it. Well designed system but not without its own quirks and issues.

Gerst Suspension; http://www.gerstsuspensions.com/  a recent  addition to the tubular offerings that are out there. They build their stuff out of .25 wall everything, so the  do not drop as much weight as many other systems, but are hoping to achieve OEM longevity. My fear with this would be that now the  heavyweight system will now beat the car into submission while suspension parts remain intact.

Control Freak Suspension ; http://www.freakride.com/ a complete rip off of  Alterkation only done in square tubing. All the same issues as are found with Alterk.

If I may offer an observation and recommendation...you are obviously building a very nice car and dumping a fair amount of money into. I think your shop is pushing for you to drop a similar percentage of coin on your suspension as you have dropped on your driveline because  such an awesome engine deserves an awesome suspension, and I'll grant you all the coil over systems offer a substantial amount of impressive appearance and perceived engineering. It also reflects positively on your shop when you take your car out and people ooooh and aaahh over it. This is very good PR for them and you.

On the flip side, you are installing an Elephant into a mid sized pony car. Chrysler did not gain this term of endearment on the Hemi because it is a lightweight. It is one of the largest and heaviest gasoline engine Chrysler ever put on four wheels. Functionality and durability had to be hallmarks of the original design of the systems put underneath this engine . The dealer networks had to support these beasts for a year after the sale, so  durability was a hallmark. Because engineering was a Chrysler hallmark, the geometry and adjustability of the original suspension systems Chrysler used far ahead of its competition in the day and is actually still  very refined by modern standards.

Nearly all coil over systems offer a few benefits over the stock system. Lighter weight, inexpensive spring prices, a multitude of spring choices, and a very sexy appearance. In the racing world, these are all primary considerations  in increasing speed and reducing e.t. They also come with some drawback like increased turning radius,  light duty components, and while they are built on sound engineering principles, lack the  millions of miles of validation that went into the OEM systems.

By contrast, the OEM suspension is well established and decidedly old school in appearance. It offers the right mix of durability yet is not so heavy duty as to compromise road hazards with  chassis integrity. The original mopar design offers nearly as much adjustability and has a track proven record on cars running into the single digit arena. Drawbacks to it are its overall weight, spring rates are not widely varied and are expensive to buy, and its adjustability requires digging extensively into mother's publications to fully understand how to  adjust it all and dial it in.

You have stated this is a predominately street oriented car with the occasional trip down the 1320. I heartily recommend sticking with the stock based system in this application.  This offers road going durability to stand up the real world. It offers readily available replacement parts. It has access to those key components to allow the adjustability you would want on a bracket racer. It offers the consistentcy you  absolutely need in bracket racing without chasing multiple adjustments and changes. When combined with some high quality shocks and a  radial friendly alignment, the OEM system can feel on par with any modern car.

That isn't to discount the  coil over systems. If you are a tinkerer and want to play with adjustments they may be the ticket. If the roads where you live are well maintained, then you may not have durability concerns. They offer a range of spring choices in 50# increments which mean you can precisely dial in teh  desired level of comfort and performance and by comparison to t-bars, are not expensive at all. And even I'll admit they look great and can be a great compliment to a new build.



 :clapping: Well thought out through post.. & pretty well accurate... :worshippy
JS27N0B 70 Challenger R/T Convertible  FJ5 Sublime, Show Poodle w/90,000 miles since resto
WS27L8G 68 Coronet R/T Convertible  PP1 Bright Red, Project
RM21H9E 69 Road Runner Coupe R4 Performance Red, Sold...
5H21C  65 Falcon 2 dr Wagon... Dog Hauler...

Offline BobBejeski

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Any aftermarket suspension with a  R&P front steer has been set up to have fair to decent ackerman. Flipping to stock steering arms forward to use a rack is what produces reverse ackerman, which is a nightmare to drive.

Magnumforce is probably the first company that was mass producing  coil over kits for mopars. I recall seeing advertisements for them as early as 1991. However, their earliest efforts and their base system still offered today, bolts directly to the shock towers with no direct reinforcement. This means over time and with use, the inner fender begin to collapse in and will pinch the hood.  They now  offer an extra price kit that provides down tube to reinforce the shock towers. They also have produced a new kit called the transformer which is a huge, bulky looking thing made from box tubing to address some of the shortcoming of their tubular system and  to make a much sleeker looking bolt in solution.

Since you are still digging at aftermarket systems don't forget to look at these as well;

XV Engineering. http://xvengineering.com/  whose coil over suspension is an aluminum square tube frame using C6 Corvette parts and a very robust 3 link rear design. User Finoke here on CC.com has one of these under his Cuda. Look for his posts on it. Well designed system but not without its own quirks and issues.

Gerst Suspension; http://www.gerstsuspensions.com/  a recent  addition to the tubular offerings that are out there. They build their stuff out of .25 wall everything, so the  do not drop as much weight as many other systems, but are hoping to achieve OEM longevity. My fear with this would be that now the  heavyweight system will now beat the car into submission while suspension parts remain intact.

Control Freak Suspension ; http://www.freakride.com/ a complete rip off of  Alterkation only done in square tubing. All the same issues as are found with Alterk.

If I may offer an observation and recommendation...you are obviously building a very nice car and dumping a fair amount of money into. I think your shop is pushing for you to drop a similar percentage of coin on your suspension as you have dropped on your driveline because  such an awesome engine deserves an awesome suspension, and I'll grant you all the coil over systems offer a substantial amount of impressive appearance and perceived engineering. It also reflects positively on your shop when you take your car out and people ooooh and aaahh over it. This is very good PR for them and you.

On the flip side, you are installing an Elephant into a mid sized pony car. Chrysler did not gain this term of endearment on the Hemi because it is a lightweight. It is one of the largest and heaviest gasoline engine Chrysler ever put on four wheels. Functionality and durability had to be hallmarks of the original design of the systems put underneath this engine . The dealer networks had to support these beasts for a year after the sale, so  durability was a hallmark. Because engineering was a Chrysler hallmark, the geometry and adjustability of the original suspension systems Chrysler used far ahead of its competition in the day and is actually still  very refined by modern standards.

Nearly all coil over systems offer a few benefits over the stock system. Lighter weight, inexpensive spring prices, a multitude of spring choices, and a very sexy appearance. In the racing world, these are all primary considerations  in increasing speed and reducing e.t. They also come with some drawback like increased turning radius,  light duty components, and while they are built on sound engineering principles, lack the  millions of miles of validation that went into the OEM systems.

By contrast, the OEM suspension is well established and decidedly old school in appearance. It offers the right mix of durability yet is not so heavy duty as to compromise road hazards with  chassis integrity. The original mopar design offers nearly as much adjustability and has a track proven record on cars running into the single digit arena. Drawbacks to it are its overall weight, spring rates are not widely varied and are expensive to buy, and its adjustability requires digging extensively into mother's publications to fully understand how to  adjust it all and dial it in.

You have stated this is a predominately street oriented car with the occasional trip down the 1320. I heartily recommend sticking with the stock based system in this application.  This offers road going durability to stand up the real world. It offers readily available replacement parts. It has access to those key components to allow the adjustability you would want on a bracket racer. It offers the consistentcy you  absolutely need in bracket racing without chasing multiple adjustments and changes. When combined with some high quality shocks and a  radial friendly alignment, the OEM system can feel on par with any modern car.

That isn't to discount the  coil over systems. If you are a tinkerer and want to play with adjustments they may be the ticket. If the roads where you live are well maintained, then you may not have durability concerns. They offer a range of spring choices in 50# increments which mean you can precisely dial in teh  desired level of comfort and performance and by comparison to t-bars, are not expensive at all. And even I'll admit they look great and can be a great compliment to a new build.


  I soaked up every single word.....thanks for investing the time to write that up,  I have a feeling I will be referring to it more than a few times as I continue my search for information and system selection.

  -Bob

Offline brads70

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I'd have to say I agree with HP2 . I come from a circle track back ground and when I first got my car .... well even before I got my car I had plans to cut the front clip off at the firewall and build my own. HP2 talked me out of it and am glad he did.
Don't get me wrong these cars will never handle as good as a new Vette or Viper etc. If you want that, well go buy one of those cars?...  but with a little work these cars can be a night and day from stock. I'll be blunt and say in stock form these cars are the worst handling and braking cars I've ever drove. My family Chevy Suburban out handled and braked my beloved 70 Challenger in stock form. Not anymore though! I now routinely get drivers following me that I see back off and sometimes they get a little squirrely on on ramps etc... they just don't expect an old car to handle that well. I don't use the brakes nearly as much as I once did!  :icon16:
Don't be afraid to use some serious torsion bars ( firm feel ) These cars were horribly under sprung from the factory. I have 1.120" now and have the 1.180" here ready to go in when I get a chance. Get rear springs suited/balanced for the bigger sway bars.  Good shocks are a must also , I'm using double adjustable QA1 and am happy with them. Don't let the alignment shop use factory ( bias ply tire) specs either. Those settings are horrible. 
Lots of options for braking systems from the aftermarket also. I'm stubborn and made my own...
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline EMCD

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So, next month I'll be installing PST 1.03" TBs, 4-Bilstien shocks, FF cross shaft steering box adjustment, & FF pitman arm sleeve support. These parts w/o labor have run me about $700. This will be in addition to my FF stage 3 steering box. Currently, the car handles like a 1960's dump truck. I'll report back after the upgrades to let you know the difference. I sincerely hope that it feels 1000x better.

Offline Mopar Mitch

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Regarding the intended 1.03 TBs, you'll barely notice any difference.   Since you've got a front-end-heavy setup, I suggest at least ~1.12 from FF, or better yet their readily available 1.18.   With the skinny 1.03's you'll eventually realize that you should've gone larger in diameter.  and the 1.12-1.18 are not as stiff as you might think... they are great for the street/hwy and far better for any occasional road course events.

If you were to experience my 1.24 TBs (and I've had multiple smaller TBs), you'd understand what and why I'm suggesting larger TBs.    Just trying to help you save time and $$ and get a better experience sooner rather than later.

Autocross/road racers go in deeper... and come out harder!

See  MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, AUGUST 2006 ISSUE for featured article and details on my autocross T/A.

Offline EMCD

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it's 20% larger than the existing given the standard .88 bars have 107lbs of rate and the 1.03" bar is 175, bundled with the bilstien shocks I think I'd be much closer to a safer street fighter than before. I'm not going to be auto-crossing, just pounding around the streets of Denver. What I want to get rid of is  the terrifying feeling I get behind the wheel at speeds north of 60mph. it think larger TBs with the limits of the bilstien shocks might not improve my handling as well. thoughts? remember, I have about $700 total dollars into shocks, tbs, steering components. I'm trying to be as frugal as possible.

Offline cudazappa

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I used to run 1" t-bars, 1.125" sway and kyb/gas shocks on my challenger.  Very jarring on the road. I now run 1.18 T-bars, 1.25 hotchkis sway, and QA1 single adjustable shocks.  Ride and handling have improved.  Found the t-bars and shocks lightly used for $300 from someone "upgrading" to an alter-k, and got the sway bar at 20% off at Carlisle.  Always pays to hunt for deals.
1971 Challenger - AutoX project
2015 Dart GT - Daily Driver

Offline crash340

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Torsion bar buyers, choose the size you think you would like then order at least two sizes up from that, the guys above are correct go BIG, I have a small block Cuda, put 1.06 FF bars in it, yes better around corners, could be much better though, and as for cruising, can't tell the difference from the original,,,,,,,, if I come into some spare $$$ I'm binning the 1.06's for much bigger
Greg

73 Cuda
Brisbane, Australia

Offline EMCD

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anyone got larger TBs they want to part with? :bigsmile:

Offline WildJones

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anyone got larger TBs they want to part with? :bigsmile:

Might be swapping out my 1.12. Same story as the bilsteins...
Mike
95682
1970 Cuda

Offline EMCD

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Will that lead to a waterfall issues? The 1.03 fit well with the bilstiens but might be to light for the 1.12" TBs?