440 6 PINGING and stalling is going to be the death of me.

[Travis Blake]

I've been fighting the pinging and stalling in my six pack Challenger for a long time...I actually took it into a shop near me that deals primarily in older iron. Here is the list of what has been done...it has helped about 50%, but I would not call it fixed.

When hot, it stalls as soon as it's pulled into gear. Could this be trans related? Could the pinging be coming from compression possibly? is 9.5 right now I believe the cam is 488.

Changed all carb base gaskets, had a slight leak in the back.
Adjusted all carbs
Changed pick up in distributor
Installed 195 stat
Set time at 12 (14 best but way too much ping) Pinging still show at 12 under heavy load.
Tested vacuum with and without a canister My fear is something up in trans when driven long time licking up converter.

ANY help would be great.

[Cuda Cody]

Most likely 2 issues.  First, if you are putting the Auto trans in to gear and the engine wants to die, then it could be the transmission torque converter that is to tight.  What that means is you might have a Stall that is on the lower side of the RPM range and wanting to "lock up" before it needs to.  Lots of times racers will want a tight converter, but if you have a close to stock engine you don't need as tight of a converter.  For example, a stock converter may be 2,300 RPM (just grabbing a number for the example) and you might have a 1,900 RPM.  What that means is your converter will basically be locked up around 1,900.  If you have a higher number RPM torque converter it would allow you to put it in gear with less "pull" or drag from the trans and not bog the engine down and make it want to die.  Just a thought of something to think about.  Not saying that's it for sure.  Also, cheap converters will have more issues with that too.  Best to get a quality converter from the start.  Two of the better Mopar Torque converter companies are Frank Lupo's Dynamic Converters and Turbo Action.  Both will build you a converter for your exact engine.  Cost I would guess for a good stock converter would be around $400 to $500.

As for the pinging (or detonation), that could be a few things.  9.5 to 1 compression is on the high side for today's fuels.  Back in the day with lead and better fuels that would not be an issue.  What grade fuel do you use?  Have you tried running some race fuel mixed in?  And how "exact" is your 9.5 to 1 compression?  Did someone that knows how to cc a head do the math or is it a close guess?  IMO, I like to stay around 9:1 for stock engines that mainly use pump fuel.  It's on the safer side.  If you have aluminum heads you can get away with 10:1 pretty easy.  Also, check the timing at full advance (without the vacuum) and lets us know what it is around 3,000 RPMs.

[Travis Blake]

Most likely 2 issues.  First, if you are putting the Auto trans in to gear and the engine wants to die, then it could be the transmission torque converter that is to tight.  What that means is you might have a Stall that is on the lower side of the RPM range and wanting to "lock up" before it needs to.  Lots of times racers will want a tight converter, but if you have a close to stock engine you don't need as tight of a converter.  For example, a stock converter may be 2,300 RPM (just grabbing a number for the example) and you might have a 1,900 RPM.  What that means is your converter will basically be locked up around 1,900.  If you have a higher number RPM torque converter it would allow you to put it in gear with less "pull" or drag from the trans and not bog the engine down and make it want to die.  Just a thought of something to think about.  Not saying that's it for sure.  Also, cheap converters will have more issues with that too.  Best to get a quality converter from the start.  Two of the better Mopar Torque converter companies are Frank Lupo's Dynamic Converters and Turbo Action.  Both will build you a converter for your exact engine.  Cost I would guess for a good stock converter would be around $400 to $500.

As for the pinging (or detonation), that could be a few things.  9.5 to 1 compression is on the high side for today's fuels.  Back in the day with lead and better fuels that would not be an issue.  What grade fuel do you use?  Have you tried running some race fuel mixed in?  And how "exact" is your 9.5 to 1 compression?  Did someone that knows how to cc a head do the math or is it a close guess?  IMO, I like to stay around 9:1 for stock engines that mainly use pump fuel.  It's on the safer side.  If you have aluminum heads you can get away with 10:1 pretty easy.  Also, check the timing at full advance (without the vacuum) and lets us know what it is around 3,000 RPMs.

Hey man, all good info, thanks for sending. Here are the answers to a few of your questions:

Gas - running 93
Race Fuel - Would this be the bottle of Ethanol? I was actually going to try mixing some in this weekend.
Compression - I have to check the slip from the guy that built the engine, but I believe it's between 9.5 and 9.7
Converter - I'll double check but I believe its actually 2,300.
Converter Brand - I believe it's a Hughes.

[bc3j]

Don't know if this is of any help.  I have a '70 Challenger RT with a stock 383 magnum N code motor. The FSM says the compression is 9.5:1 and the torque converter is between 2350 and 2650. I use 93 octane without any additional additives. My ignition has been upgraded to a Mopar performance electronic with an orange box. No pinging. 

A Mopar mechanic friend of mine installed the new distributor for me and I don't know what the timing is set at, just it runs fine without any pinging. I have never put a timing light to check the timing because it runs good.

[jason340]

I have a 440 built motor and I know for sure it has a 9.6 compression ratio and it runs fine on 93 pump gas with no additives. When first built it had a stock stall converter and would lunge or sort of jerk  at stop lights but never stalled so it was changed to a 2500.
 On the ping, I have a 69 Camaro with a Zl1 all aluminum 427 engine with 10.8 compression and I can run it on 93 pump gas with no additive.
Does it ping all the time or just under acceleration?
Just a thought, are you sure your harmonic balancer had not shifted in its rubber mount to give you a false timing reading? I have a 340 Cuda that has done that so I know it can happen.

[jimynick]

"Just a thought, are you sure your harmonic balancer had not shifted in its rubber mount to give you a false timing reading? I have a 340 Cuda that has done that so I know it can happen." That's the first thing I'd check with a compression stop. I don't know the initial advance # for a 440, but the 340's are 8' advance, not 12-14 even though as you say, it "likes" it. Get the thing on a chassis dyno and get the operator to plot the advance curve for you so that you know where, when and how much total you're getting. CP knows way more about this, but I think there were various vacumn advance units and that they were adjustable via a wee allen key through the hose port. Until you know what the spark curve is, you may be chasing your tail with other adjustments. Just my 

[734406pk]

FSM specs for the 440 6 pack:

Spark plug Champion J-11Y @ .035" gap
Base timing Auto Transmission: 5 deg BTDC
A more aggressive cam will need more base timing.
Check your total timing, you may need to eliminate the vacuum advance... 34-36 degrees all in by 3000 rpm.
Have you checked the spark plug color? Post a pic of a plug or two.

[1 Wild R/T]

Sounds like you have an Mopar Performance Electronic Ignition..... The as delivered mechanical advance setup doesn't work.... The timing starts coming in around 800ish rpms So you set the idle at 850 & theres some mechanical advance already coming in... So when you drop it in gear which pulls the rpms down so the timing falls out & when that hap degrees pens the rpms drop further to the point the engine dies....

On to the pinging.... Again the timing curve in the MP distributor... You say it runs better with 12 degrees of initial timing... Well it would run even better with 14 or even 16.... But when you add initial timing you need to limit total timing.... Add to that the MP has to much initial to begin with & you'll see where the problem lies...

The MP typically has 14 camshaft degrees built in, that equals 28 crankshaft degrees... So you put 10 degrees initial & you have 38 total.... It's generally accepted that 36 is about all you want, there are exceptions buttttt.... So that 12 degrees gives 40 & 16 would put you at 44.... So you need to modify the timing to 10 camshaft degrees (20 crankshaft) then you put in 16 base & wind up with 36 total....  Back in the day we would weld the slots but now theres an easier way.... 

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Mopar%20Mechanical%20timing%20limiter%20plate.htm

http://www.4secondsflat.com/J685S%20instructions.htm

I suggest buying the $42 kit, it gives you the new timing plate, an assortment of springs & tuning instructions....

You'll fix your stalling, fix your pinging & get better off idle throttle response....

[tman]

With the Mopar performance kit, I had pinging issues on a 440-6 fairly stock build.  Put on heavier springs  and it solved my problem.  Most likely the light springs on the weights. It does sound like timing curve issue. 

[Travis Blake]

Awesome, thanks guys.

[brads70]

Sounds like you have an Mopar Performance Electronic Ignition..... The as delivered mechanical advance setup doesn't work.... The timing starts coming in around 800ish rpms So you set the idle at 850 & theres some mechanical advance already coming in... So when you drop it in gear which pulls the rpms down so the timing falls out & when that hap degrees pens the rpms drop further to the point the engine dies....

On to the pinging.... Again the timing curve in the MP distributor... You say it runs better with 12 degrees of initial timing... Well it would run even better with 14 or even 16.... But when you add initial timing you need to limit total timing.... Add to that the MP has to much initial to begin with & you'll see where the problem lies...

The MP typically has 14 camshaft degrees built in, that equals 28 crankshaft degrees... So you put 10 degrees initial & you have 38 total.... It's generally accepted that 36 is about all you want, there are exceptions buttttt.... So that 12 degrees gives 40 & 16 would put you at 44.... So you need to modify the timing to 10 camshaft degrees (20 crankshaft) then you put in 16 base & wind up with 36 total....  Back in the day we would weld the slots but now theres an easier way.... 

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Mopar%20Mechanical%20timing%20limiter%20plate.htm

http://www.4secondsflat.com/J685S%20instructions.htm

I suggest buying the $42 kit, it gives you the new timing plate, an assortment of springs & tuning instructions....

You'll fix your stalling, fix your pinging & get better off idle throttle response....

I used the above linked plate, works great! 

[Chryco Psycho]

What heads are on the motor , using 88cc iron heads you have no quench & you can get ping at very low compression , a good closed chamber head ould make a world of difference , such as the new Trick Flow heads