Author Topic: Need serious help and advice!  (Read 4540 times)

Offline Wadmin1021

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Need serious help and advice!
« on: March 31, 2017 - 07:45:52 PM »
It's me again! Long time no post! We've been doing awesome with our 1971 Cuda restoration! Exterior almost finished, engine in and runs great, most of electric ran and tomorrow we bleed the brakes! So what's our dilemma you ask? Well when we run our engine (440), it keeps overheating. At first we thought it was because it was such a new motor but we are well past the break in and she's still overheating. We run it for 10 minutes and have to shut it down or spray the radiator with a hose. We have installed a new thermostat because we tested the one we had (180 degree) and it didn't open until 200. So we purchased a 160, which might help a little (haven't started it back up yet), but we know it won't help enough. So here's our setup:

Champion 22" 3 row radiator
440 motor with 7-blade stock fan and low profile thermal clutch
No shroud

So we have considered shrouds, can't find one to fit without making heavy mods, we have considered electric fan system but not enough room between WP pulley and radiator (<3.5").

We can run the motor for hours as long as we lightly mist the front of radiator with hose. But take it away and boom, the temp skyrockets.  :banghead:  We talked with Champion and they recommended a setup but we don't have the clearance they say we would need.  :stomp:

So what should we do or does anyone have any input as to what will work!? We have explored so many different options but can't find a solution. Nothing like working for 3 solid years restoring a car but not being able to drive it because it would overheat! Please help!  :pullinghair:
https://youtu.be/OEKt5K71CDM

A couple that plays together, stays together!

'71 Plymouth 'Cuda named Claudia w/ 440 4-barrel and TF AT




Offline Bullitt-

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Re: Need serious help and advice!
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2017 - 08:42:12 PM »
Word is the thermal fan is the best setup but most need a shroud to be effective sitting/cruising.
What is the condition of the current radiator? could it have a restriction.
Tuning can be an issue, to much advance or carburetion to lean will cause them to overheat.
What is it that tells you that it is overheating? 
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
Screwed by Photobucket!

Offline Wadmin1021

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Re: Need serious help and advice!
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2017 - 09:03:09 PM »
Radiator is brand new... how do we tell? Well steam starts coming out of radiator cap but mostly because we always have a thermal gun pointed on motor when running and we watch it very carefully. As far as we can tell the motor is well tuned. What shroud could we use? We've looked for one and even Andy (long time member)  has tried helping us look for one but we have been unsuccessful.
https://youtu.be/OEKt5K71CDM

A couple that plays together, stays together!

'71 Plymouth 'Cuda named Claudia w/ 440 4-barrel and TF AT

Offline brads70

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Re: Need serious help and advice!
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2017 - 09:17:48 PM »
Radiator is brand new... how do we tell? Well steam starts coming out of radiator cap but mostly because we always have a thermal gun pointed on motor when running and we watch it very carefully. As far as we can tell the motor is well tuned. What shroud could we use? We've looked for one and even Andy (long time member)  has tried helping us look for one but we have been unsuccessful.

Is it the green BB in your video? If so I'd try the stock pulley's, looks like the crank pulley is much smaller than the water pump pulley?
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Bullitt-

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Re: Need serious help and advice!
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2017 - 09:18:01 PM »
What is the thermal gun registering?   
Coolant at 50/50 mix shouldn't be boiling till 285 if under pressure.
I've read about head gasket leaks creating this symptom   


there doesn't appear to be a ready made Champion shroud so if an OE style doesn't fit you can make your own
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/7303922/site_id/1#import

Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
Screwed by Photobucket!

Offline Racer57

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Re: Need serious help and advice!
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2017 - 10:11:24 PM »
Isn't a 22" 3 core without a shroud small for a 440  ?  I have a 26" 4 core with shroud for my 383. I know it might be overkill but its easier to heat up an engine than to cool it down.

Offline jimynick

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Re: Need serious help and advice!
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2017 - 10:34:55 PM »
22" sounds kinda small to me, 3 core or not. System bled properly, fan blade on right way around (I've seen it), fan belts tight, as Brad suggested, are the pullies the right size, lower rad hose not sucking shut, proper coolant mix, proper rad cap pressure rating AND function? Just some thoughts to check off as well as my  :2cents:   :cheers:

Offline cudabob496

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Re: Need serious help and advice!
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2017 - 11:38:29 PM »
shroud a must have
should have 26 inch radiator.
lower radiator hose collapsing?
get an aluminum 2 core radiator.
set idle at 1200 so pump will pump faster
is timing too advanced?
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline cudabob496

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72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline cudabob496

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Re: Need serious help and advice!
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2017 - 11:40:54 PM »
What is the thermal gun registering?   
Coolant at 50/50 mix shouldn't be boiling till 285 if under pressure.
I've read about head gasket leaks creating this symptom   


there doesn't appear to be a ready made Champion shroud so if an OE style doesn't fit you can make your own
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/7303922/site_id/1#import




this type blocks some air flow when cruising.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000


Offline Wadmin1021

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Re: Need serious help and advice!
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2017 - 09:13:42 AM »
Thanks for all the advice and help so far!  Here's some responses to your inquiries:

brads70 - yes it's the green BB in the video...going to have to check on stock pulleys... got them from 440 source???

bullitt - we rely on thermal gun more than waiting for rad cap to steam vent, it stays below 200 (well below) as long as we keep spraying with water, if we don't it quickly climbs to over 200.  we usually don't let it go too high...  I hope head gaskets aren't the issue as we just built the motor...  no leaks...  making our own is a good idea as long as it looks good aesthetically...

jimynick and racer57 - we checked and checked on size of radiator and found that 22" was the right one for our car plus it fit... the 26" was too big... our fan blade is right (already checked that), belt is tight, lower radiator hose not sucking shut (husband checked that), good coolant mix, radiator cap good - made sure of that (replaced the generic cap Champion puts on their radiators).

cudabob496 - 26" radiator won't fit our car, already checked on that which is why we went with 22", lower rad hose fine, have aluminum 3-core now, timing not too advanced...

Like I said, we have considered so many things and checked so many things and getting very exhausted and frustrated.  Andy (734406pk) suggested last night after speaking with him that we may want to consider going with OEM radiator and shroud.  Thoughts?
https://youtu.be/OEKt5K71CDM

A couple that plays together, stays together!

'71 Plymouth 'Cuda named Claudia w/ 440 4-barrel and TF AT

Offline Bullitt-

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Re: Need serious help and advice!
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2017 - 11:02:51 AM »
Some over 200 is not what I think of as overheating yet not ideal. The fact that steam is coming out of the radiator cap makes me think there's either an issue with the radiator cap or the surface it seals against therefore not holding pressure which raises the boiling point of the coolant. Even straight water shouldn't be boiling at 212 if in a sealed system.  Sounds like you did have a bad thermostat going to 160 is not really what you want though. It's possible there was an air pocket preventing circulation. Just not having a fan shroud wouldn't make the temps climb extra fast.  You might ask Champion if their radiator is designed to accept a stock shroud, pictures I've seen it looks very similar.  You may need more radiator in the long run but I don't see this issue as being caused directly by it being undersized, just my opinion based on watching dozens of similar threads through the years. 
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
Screwed by Photobucket!

Offline mopar jack

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Re: Need serious help and advice!
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2017 - 12:39:47 PM »
If it's a new motor I would pull a spark plug to see if it's too lean. Don't know the history of your engine build but if you haven't adjusted the carb to the cam I would look at larger jets to make sure it is not lean and it will help cool till you dial it in.

Offline DocMel

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Re: Need serious help and advice!
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2017 - 01:00:25 PM »
What do consider overheating?  You haven't told us yet, is it boiling over, or what temp are you getting, and where and how are you getting the temp reading?

A temp of 200-220 is not high for a idling engine. 

First, go back to a 180 or 190 thermostat:   Beleive it or not, your radiator fluid needs to be exposed to the radiator itself for it to cool, and a 160 will allow the fluid to flow thru the radiator core without the real time it takes to radiate the heat from the fluid as it flows thru the rad  And yes, a 180 will not open to about 200, thats normal

Also, I really doubt the heat prob, if you really have one now,  was, or is now caused now but the recent rebuild:  Again, if the coolant system is good to go, you should not exp. overheating

The problem, at least to me, can only lie in four  areas:

1. Radiator:  I'm not a big fan of aluminum radiators.  Frankly, for a mild build big block, there is not need for one, and the stock original rad did the job just fine.  I have never had luck with an aluminum radiator cooling as well as a stock one, just me

2. Shroud:  You need one

3. Coolant flow:  Ensure there is no blockage or constriction anywhere in the coolant circuit:  Anywhere in the block, heads, radiator or hoses

4.  Timing (maybe)  But if your engine is "running good" that prob isnt a factor

 If indeed the rebuild is the cuase, you have a serious prob outside of the coolant system

Finally, I dont use a temp IR gun to see if I have a cooling prob.  Get a reliable temp gauge, preferable digital, and get the reading from where it should be: from the temp sensor in the block   Again, anything reading 220 at idle is just fine

First, lets go back to basics:

Let us know what you consider "overheating" in temps:  If it really is high (to me above 220 at idle)

Put the 180 or maybe a 190 stat back on
Try a shroud
If no joy, try a stock radiator

\\Again, what temp reading do you consider "overheating"