Rear seal AGAIN [emoji30]

Author Topic: Rear seal AGAIN [emoji30]  (Read 1696 times)

Offline Roadrunner420

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Rear seal AGAIN [emoji30]
« on: March 16, 2018 - 03:12:04 PM »
Ok guys I’m back at it again-3 times a charm?   I have just bought this set and want to make sure it don’t leak again.   Last time I replaced the main seal with a rope seal but not the side seals.  Leaked like a sieve- from the black looking oil that is coated all over my new clutch and the bell housing- I would think that’s the RTV I packed in the side seals that failed.  I was thinking of not using the main seal in this kit and keeping the rope seal in-  can I do this?  Or should I buy a new rope seal?  The rope seal has about 1 hour on it.  Any tips on installing these particular side seals?


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Offline Kevin71

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Re: Rear seal AGAIN [emoji30]
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2018 - 01:28:14 PM »
I have a 440 stroked to 522 and have had nothing but problems with this seal.  Got any ideas on why it keeps blowing?  I have had people tell me I have to much power and need to add a vacuum coming off my exhaust.  I don't know what to do with mine?  I am real interested in what comments you get on this.  Is yours a stroker motor?

Offline 70chall440

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Re: Rear seal AGAIN [emoji30]
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2018 - 01:36:50 PM »
I cannot comment on this exact seal, however there are plenty of high HP 440's out there that dont have this problem. That said, in my mind the HP shouldn't have a lot to do with the seal blowing out (could be wrong here, but I cannot see how the HP would affect it). Something is amiss some place and the first thing that comes to mind is too much pressure building in the engine. Have you tried a scavenging system from your valve covers to your exhaust? Drag racers have used this system for year (for various reasons).

Id reach out to some of the custom engine builders perhaps like Keith Black or Muscle Motors (great guy and he is very Mopar concentric).
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Kevin71

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Re: Rear seal AGAIN [emoji30]
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2018 - 01:46:13 PM »
I just had the Fast Fish cnc retainer and seal put in.  30 miles down the road oil everywhere.  That is what I have been told by a couple of people recently to install a exhaust scavenging line to the valve cover.  I guess that is next.  I am wondering is there any down side to this? 

Offline jhaag

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Re: Rear seal AGAIN [emoji30]
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2018 - 10:45:02 PM »
I cannot give an opinion on the particular seal you are using. What I can say is that a properly installed quality seal should perform flawlessly. HP numbers, stroker motors or whatever, make no difference. Do you have a pcv system in place? If you don't ventilate your crankcase, you will have pressure induced oil leaks. Every time a piston moves down in a cylinder, it displaces air in the crankcase, and pressure builds, pushing oil out either a seal or gasket. You want negative pressure, (vacuum) in the crankcase, or at least a vent to the atmosphere. (remember the road draft tubes from the 60's) So if your motor has no venting, it will eventually leak somewhere. Some use the exhaust, for pan evacuation, but personally I would not use this on a street driven vehicle. Installed incorrectly a backfire can do more harm than good. More of a drag race system. I use intake manifold vacuum through a pcv valve in 1 valve cover, and breather/vent on the opposite cover. Rarely do I have any oil leaks. Hope this helps. By the way never "pack these full of silicone". :2cents:
« Last Edit: March 31, 2018 - 10:48:39 PM by jhaag »
love 70 Challengers

Offline cudabob496

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72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline Mopar Mitch

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Re: Rear seal AGAIN [emoji30]
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2018 - 02:23:42 PM »
Here is the factual history:  older engines were designed with wide-machined tolerance dimensions, some were a little closer, some wider.  THAT is why rope seals were used by the OE designs.. to accommodate the wide machined tolerances of the seal grooves.  As tolerances would be tightened for production, costs would go up.... OEs were always, then looking to keep costs down.   The early rope seals were made of soft-conforming asbestos (rope) with impregnated graphite.  Also, there were multiple cross sectional sizes of the rope as used by the OEs, that would be pre-determined what was best for the wide tolerances of the specific engine's seal grooves.

In the mid-late 80s, asbestos was materials were replaced by non-asbestos materials... and many of those included Kevlar raw material (with impregnated graphite)... BUT... the non-asbestos seals were NOT as conformable as the original asbestos... many different seal materials were evaluated, the best choices prevailed with the major gasket companies within their offered gasket and seal kits.   However, the new non-asbestos rope seals were difficult to be cut flush at the parting halves of the block/cap.  In fact, certain serated cutting tools were found to be best, NOT the old traditional pocket knife... remember, now the materials had Kevlar within them -- tougher than steel!

Also, the packing of the rope would benefit by using the factory recommended radiused tool... difficult to find in the aftermarket... as well as OE tools.

The BB side seals also had the issue with variable machined dimensions.  A pre-sized rubber seal (regardless of what the material is), will not always fit properly within those side seal channels.  The BEST choice, as per OE design, is the use a soft swelling fiber strip (as per OE) that is to be soaked in mineral spirits ... so to allow it to swell upon installing into the side channels.  The better gasket companies will include those fiber seals with instructions to soak in mineral spirits.   IF you attempt to use RTV injected into the side channels, you must also use a thin water-soaked insert that allows the RTV to cure with the water of the insert.   IF you only insert RTV, then it will likely not fill all the cavity due to air purging against the injected RTV, and it will not cure.... it needs air (at least via water) to cure.

Molded rubber crank seals for the BB will work most of the time, but it may not IF the groove is factory machined beyond a reasonable dimensional tolerance.   Also, be certain to install any rubber shaft seal with the helix grooves facing away from the engine.. so that it allows the helix grooves to pump oil beyond the lip back INTO the engine... that's how its designed.

I'm a former Fel-Pro gasket engineer and I know the history of these older engines, and wrote the instructions within the gasket sets. 
Autocross/road racers go in deeper... and come out harder!

See  MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, AUGUST 2006 ISSUE for featured article and details on my autocross T/A.

Offline polarbear123

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Re: Rear seal AGAIN [emoji30]
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2018 - 12:19:59 PM »
 The BEST choice, as per OE design, is the use a soft swelling fiber strip (as per OE) that is to be soaked in mineral spirits ... so to allow it to swell upon installing into the side channels.  The better gasket companies will include those fiber seals with instructions to soak in mineral spirits

Hi Mitch, could tell us who sells these?

Offline Mopar Mitch

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Re: Rear seal AGAIN [emoji30]
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2018 - 02:04:40 PM »
I'm not 100% certain IF the major gasket companies -- Fel-Pro and Mahle (Victor) -- still include the fiber strips.   I do know that Fel-Pro offered a small tube of RTV with the thin water strips to be soaked and inserted (like cleaning brushes, but very thin).  These would be included in the gasket company's rear seal set (Fel-Pro BS), full set (Fel-Pro FS), and bottom end set (Fel-Pro CS).   Sealed Power gaskets are Fel-Pro (KS- or 260- sets).   The OE sets may still offer the fiber side seals, not sure as its been a long time.
Autocross/road racers go in deeper... and come out harder!

See  MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, AUGUST 2006 ISSUE for featured article and details on my autocross T/A.

Offline CUDA8U

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Re: Rear seal AGAIN [emoji30]
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2018 - 05:31:57 PM »
i have heard good things about the Mancini one piece


http://www.manciniracing.com/bheremarose.html