Author Topic: RPM's and Torque Delivery: Big Block vs Small Block  (Read 1228 times)

Offline Spartan040

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RPM's and Torque Delivery: Big Block vs Small Block
« on: June 20, 2018 - 07:42:00 PM »
We all know that the big blocks have a lot more power potential than the small blocks, but I've seen some small block stroker motors in the 408-426 CI range that really scream, edging around 500 HP and torque numbers around the same figure (I've even seen a few go as high as 600). Given that they're lighter and far less expensive than big blocks, I've had to at least reconsider the idea of using a small block stroker versus sticking with my plans to build a lightweight aluminum 440 stroker in my planned Challenger build. So, my question isn't about power levels so much as how do the two engine types deliver power to the ground differently, and how do they rev differently?

As I understand it (although I could be wrong, I'm still learning), the big blocks have a lot more low-end torque and you get a much larger kick in the pants than you would with a small block, whereas the small blocks have a more even torque delivery throughout the powerband which makes it easier to launch them without going sideways and boiling tires, and to have more consistent torque delivery throughout the RPM range, similar to the Gen 3 Hemis. Am I correct here? Or way off?

I'm also fairly sure that the small blocks rev higher and faster than the big blocks, topping out somewhere in the low 7k range versus the big blocks that top out around the mid to high 6k range. While revving faster could be an advantage, is it really a benefit to rev higher if your peak HP and torque numbers were a good ways below that?

I realize the SB vs BB debate has been going for a long while, but I just thought it might be fun to throw a little gasoline on the embers  ;D




Offline 70chall440

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Re: RPM's and Torque Delivery: Big Block vs Small Block
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2018 - 11:57:40 PM »
I would think that you should get quite a lot of responses to this as there are several camps when it comes to this subject. The first lesson I learned as a young hotrodder is that there is no replacement for displacement; ergo a 440 has more power than a 340 (in stock form). That said and many years later I can say with a degree of certainty that as it relates to streetable power, you can get a SB to produce BB power, however it is a sliding graph, meaning if you worked on both a SB and BB simultaneously and did essentially the same mods to each, the power levels would remain apart.

To be very honest, all of this is really moot unless you are building a race car and trying to accomplish something specific (HP level, speed, ET, whatever). As stated, you can make a SB produce 500+ HP especially given today's technology and parts. Sure you can make a BB produce far more but you arrive a diminished point of return, meaning that at a certain point more HP isnt necessary or even desirable unless you are specifically after that for whatever reason.

You have to look at the car holistically and identify what you want or intend to do with it and then build to that. I would not hesitate to use a SB to achieve any streetable HP goal, likewise I wouldn't shy away from a BB either. For me its about the "package" and what I want the end result to be, if you want to be able to say your car is a BB car then go that way, if on the other hand you dont care and are only concerned about overall performance (speed, handling, stopping, etc.) then you should definitely be considering a SB. Not saying a BB car cannot handle or stop, but the weight advantage of a SB coupled with cost might make more sense.

As to how the engines deliver their respective power; you are correct in that typically a BB will exhibit stump pulling torque whereas a SB comes on mid to high RPM (generally, I am sure many will chime in about this). That said, this effect can be negated/improved by gear selection and suspension set up. I have personally owned and seen SB cars that just kick ass; super fast off the line and pull like freight trains. Here again you are blessed living in a time when almost anything is possible; with advent of overdrives, 6 or 8 speed automatics you can literally have your cake and eat it too.

As to RPM limits, well here again if you are talking about relatively stock engines using stock fasteners; I would say your current understandings very far off. In the old days we knew that taking a BB (especially a 440) past about 6800 was not a good idea and you were probably going to grenade it. Sure there were/are some who push them into the 7K+ territory but IMO its an accident looking for a place to happen. The Chevy guys have the same issues with 454's. The 383 (and 396) seem to slightly more forgiving in that you will probably float the valves before it lets go but you never know. Consequently, 340's would run up to the low 7K range and some more; hell I took a 318 to 8K and held once trying to blow it and it wouldn't, did make any power at that level as the valves were floating but it held together.

You really need to develop an overall scheme for the build and talk to some engine guys like Mike at Muscle Motors, or the guys at Indy, Keith Black, etc. Talk to all of them and see what feedback you get. they are all going ask the same questions; "what do you want to do with it", "what are you going to out it in", etc.

The internet is great but it can drive you crazy. Talk to people who build engines for a living and actually Dyno them; they can tell you no BS exactly what works and what doesn't. Every car guy out there can tell you about this car and that car, this engine and that engine, but without verifiable quantifiable data its just another war story.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Spartan040

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Re: RPM's and Torque Delivery: Big Block vs Small Block
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2018 - 12:26:29 AM »
I would think that you should get quite a lot of responses to this as there are several camps when it comes to this subject. The first lesson I learned as a young hotrodder is that there is no replacement for displacement; ergo a 440 has more power than a 340 (in stock form). That said and many years later I can say with a degree of certainty that as it relates to streetable power, you can get a SB to produce BB power, however it is a sliding graph, meaning if you worked on both a SB and BB simultaneously and did essentially the same mods to each, the power levels would remain apart.

To be very honest, all of this is really moot unless you are building a race car and trying to accomplish something specific (HP level, speed, ET, whatever). As stated, you can make a SB produce 500+ HP especially given today's technology and parts. Sure you can make a BB produce far more but you arrive a diminished point of return, meaning that at a certain point more HP isnt necessary or even desirable unless you are specifically after that for whatever reason.

You have to look at the car holistically and identify what you want or intend to do with it and then build to that. I would not hesitate to use a SB to achieve any streetable HP goal, likewise I wouldn't shy away from a BB either. For me its about the "package" and what I want the end result to be, if you want to be able to say your car is a BB car then go that way, if on the other hand you dont care and are only concerned about overall performance (speed, handling, stopping, etc.) then you should definitely be considering a SB. Not saying a BB car cannot handle or stop, but the weight advantage of a SB coupled with cost might make more sense.

As to how the engines deliver their respective power; you are correct in that typically a BB will exhibit stump pulling torque whereas a SB comes on mid to high RPM (generally, I am sure many will chime in about this). That said, this effect can be negated/improved by gear selection and suspension set up. I have personally owned and seen SB cars that just kick ass; super fast off the line and pull like freight trains. Here again you are blessed living in a time when almost anything is possible; with advent of overdrives, 6 or 8 speed automatics you can literally have your cake and eat it too.

As to RPM limits, well here again if you are talking about relatively stock engines using stock fasteners; I would say your current understandings very far off. In the old days we knew that taking a BB (especially a 440) past about 6800 was not a good idea and you were probably going to grenade it. Sure there were/are some who push them into the 7K+ territory but IMO its an accident looking for a place to happen. The Chevy guys have the same issues with 454's. The 383 (and 396) seem to slightly more forgiving in that you will probably float the valves before it lets go but you never know. Consequently, 340's would run up to the low 7K range and some more; hell I took a 318 to 8K and held once trying to blow it and it wouldn't, did make any power at that level as the valves were floating but it held together.

You really need to develop an overall scheme for the build and talk to some engine guys like Mike at Muscle Motors, or the guys at Indy, Keith Black, etc. Talk to all of them and see what feedback you get. they are all going ask the same questions; "what do you want to do with it", "what are you going to out it in", etc.

The internet is great but it can drive you crazy. Talk to people who build engines for a living and actually Dyno them; they can tell you no BS exactly what works and what doesn't. Every car guy out there can tell you about this car and that car, this engine and that engine, but without verifiable quantifiable data its just another war story.

Really appreciate the input, thank you!

Offline 70chall440

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Re: RPM's and Torque Delivery: Big Block vs Small Block
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2018 - 12:26:15 PM »
You are very welcome, I don't know that I wrote anything you didn't already know but sometimes you just need another point of view. I have 2 more projects sitting in my shop; one is a 70 Road Runner that will be getting a 66 426 Hemi and the other is a 68 Cuda that has a 318 but will either retain a SB or get a Gen III hemi. I have a concept for each car and that dictates what I buy and what I do for each. There will always be some "mission creep" as you move forward and learn more or you decide to make a change for one reason or another; but the overall concept should remain firm.

Point in case, I am building a 73 Cuda currently and the original concept was to make it a Road Race (style) car; meaning it had to handle, stop and turn as well as been relatively fast. I stroked the 340 to 416, am using Edelbrock RPM heads, Crane roller cam, etc. I am using the factory 8.75 rear end with a brace and built a triangulated 4 link. I built my own brake systems and converted the car to 4 spd and built a hydraulic clutch system. My point is that I want this car to be "race orientated" but I didn't want a stripped out race car, I dont have a cage of any kind, am using all of the glass, etc. There was a point when I was leaning towards installing a cage and had mounted a Accusump oil system, but I decided that this car most likely will never actually see a track so I changed the build and made it more street than race. I want the car to be reliable which is why I am running a roller cam and EFI. I want the car to handle so I spent a lot of time/money on stiffening the car and the suspension. I spent a lot of time designing and building the brake system as well, not to mention the 4 link rear suspension. The car isnt running yet but I am close, so we will see how it all comes out.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Spartan040

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Re: RPM's and Torque Delivery: Big Block vs Small Block
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2018 - 02:46:57 PM »
You are very welcome, I don't know that I wrote anything you didn't already know but sometimes you just need another point of view. I have 2 more projects sitting in my shop; one is a 70 Road Runner that will be getting a 66 426 Hemi and the other is a 68 Cuda that has a 318 but will either retain a SB or get a Gen III hemi. I have a concept for each car and that dictates what I buy and what I do for each. There will always be some "mission creep" as you move forward and learn more or you decide to make a change for one reason or another; but the overall concept should remain firm.

Point in case, I am building a 73 Cuda currently and the original concept was to make it a Road Race (style) car; meaning it had to handle, stop and turn as well as been relatively fast. I stroked the 340 to 416, am using Edelbrock RPM heads, Crane roller cam, etc. I am using the factory 8.75 rear end with a brace and built a triangulated 4 link. I built my own brake systems and converted the car to 4 spd and built a hydraulic clutch system. My point is that I want this car to be "race orientated" but I didn't want a stripped out race car, I dont have a cage of any kind, am using all of the glass, etc. There was a point when I was leaning towards installing a cage and had mounted a Accusump oil system, but I decided that this car most likely will never actually see a track so I changed the build and made it more street than race. I want the car to be reliable which is why I am running a roller cam and EFI. I want the car to handle so I spent a lot of time/money on stiffening the car and the suspension. I spent a lot of time designing and building the brake system as well, not to mention the 4 link rear suspension. The car isnt running yet but I am close, so we will see how it all comes out.

That's a very pretty car, good luck with that project! About how much does that small block of yours weigh with the aluminum heads? What kind of power are you putting out?

My guess is that it will weigh fairly close to the same as an all-aluminum big block 440. Is there an advantage to concentrating that weight more towards the center with a small block versus spreading it out farther with the big block?

Offline 70chall440

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Re: RPM's and Torque Delivery: Big Block vs Small Block
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2018 - 03:26:31 PM »
I have no idea what it weights but I know it is less than a steel BB. I believe the aluminum heads saves something like 50lbs or something. There is a definite advantage in handling and braking not having a lot of weight up front; this is why as it relates to Ebodies, a SB car is much more nimble than a BB car. In the old days, this wasn't a concern bc everyone was much more interested in straight line power which the BB's were much better at generally.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Spartan040

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Re: RPM's and Torque Delivery: Big Block vs Small Block
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2018 - 08:39:03 PM »
I have no idea what it weights but I know it is less than a steel BB. I believe the aluminum heads saves something like 50lbs or something. There is a definite advantage in handling and braking not having a lot of weight up front; this is why as it relates to Ebodies, a SB car is much more nimble than a BB car. In the old days, this wasn't a concern bc everyone was much more interested in straight line power which the BB's were much better at generally.

I can certainly see some advantages to the small block. I'm curious about the vacuum that a small block stroker will produce to compliment the brakes I'm planning on using (likely Baer or Wilwood 4 or 6 piston 14" in front and Corvette Z06 4 piston brakes in rear, since I'm planning on using a C6 Z06 Corvette IRS in the rear).

I'm also planning on using something around a 3:23 gear ratio, so perhaps that combined with the right engine tuning, the right cam, and the IRS will help me manage the torque of the big block a lot better, should I decide to stay with that route. The two build configurations I'm considering for either the small or big block will both be making fairly similar power (around 525-575 horsepower, 500-550 torque) and they'll both weigh about the same (I'm fairly determined to use an aluminum block for the 440), so now it just comes down to ease of maintenance, engine longevity, driving characteristics, torque delivery, etc. Not super worried about gas mileage since I'm going to use EFI and an OD trans, but would a 360-based stroker or a 500" stroker make better gas mileage? I'm guessing the big block since it isn't working as hard to produce the same power. Ah, so many pros and cons to consider...

Offline 70chall440

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Re: RPM's and Torque Delivery: Big Block vs Small Block
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2018 - 10:44:47 PM »
Well. I'd say it is going to be easier to hit your HP goals with a BB to a degree, but again the engine builders are going to be much better at telling you than anyone else. As to the vacuum, I cannot really comment on that but on my Cuda I am not running power brakes and after much research I don't think you really need to on a well designed and executed brake system. Point in case, the vast majority of race cars don't run power brakes and a conversation with an active road racer, he stated quickly and emphatically that a good brake system doesn't need more power than you leg. I am not saying power brakes don't have their place, but I don't think they are a necessity in every application.

Your plans with IRS and an OD should help you manage all of the power. I have a 01 Viper and a 10 Challenger RT and its very interesting to see how those cars deliver and manage power. The Viper produces 450 HP at the flywheel yet feels like so much more. Alot of it has to do with the short wheel base but the IRS, EFI and engine/trans combo really works well. Same basic principle with the Challenger although both cars make power at different times and yield different torque curves.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)