Author Topic: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.  (Read 3789 times)

Offline Kevin71

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Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« on: February 29, 2020 - 11:05:52 AM »
I have a 71 challenger that has been rewired, however the wiring harness was heavily modified by a shop.  I have dual electric fans that have been blowing the fuses.  The ignition source for the solenoids is wired to the positive on the coil.  Is this ok? Power source for the fans runs to the alternator.  Battery is in the trunk the head light wires run thru inner fender wells.




Offline 70chall440

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Re: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2020 - 01:32:48 PM »
Not sure what you mean by "ignition source wired to the solenoids wired to the positive on the coil", what solenoids are you referring to?

Are your fans using relays? If not they need to be, you MUST have relays for high amperage draw devices like fans Halogen headlights, fuel pumps, etc.

Take a moment and try to draw up a simple wiring diagram and post it on here if possible.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Kevin71

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Re: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2020 - 11:24:01 AM »
I am sorry.  They are relays for the fans.  Instructions from Be cool says to wire the fan relays to a ignition source.  Shop is using the positive terminal on the coil for this source.

Offline 70chall440

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Re: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2020 - 12:06:10 PM »
Well unless I am missing something or misunderstand, that is absolutely the dumbest place to connect the fans. By "ignition source" they mean that it has 12V when on (meaning ignition switch on). They were too lazy to go to the fuse box and find a source of which there are plenty (cigarette lighter, radio, etc.). All this said, connecting the fan relays to the positive side of the coil probably isn't harmful per se.

So what fuse/s are getting blown?
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Kevin71

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Re: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2020 - 02:54:10 PM »
The power to the fans.  It has dual fans with AC.  The power comes directly off the alternator to the relays to the fans.  Be cool said if the alt is not putting out enough amps it could blow the fuses.  Car has ac and stereo system with sub woofer.  I attached a pic of the coil and all the wires going to it.  It is very hard to tell what is going where because most of the wires are hidden.  Light harness runs thru the inner fender well

Offline Kevin71

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Re: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2020 - 02:54:42 PM »
How many wires is to many?  Any thoughts?

Offline Mopar73340

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Re: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2020 - 07:34:29 PM »
I would get everything except what is necessary for the ignition OFF the coil. Find a 12v switched source at the fuse box or some other source for the relay trigger wire.
Fan relays should be wired to the battery or positive stud on the starter relay. Not sure what else has been done but the electrical charging system should be updated if still in the OE configuration as there is a lot more current being used by the aftermarket equipment. An example would be the MAD engineering upgrade.
73-Challenger 340 727/GearVendors Auto
73-Challenger 408 Pistol-Grip 5-speed

Offline 70chall440

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Re: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2020 - 09:20:59 PM »
I would agree with that statement. I always installed a switched power block and a direct power block in my cars that allow me to easily connect accessories such as this; you can wire in a ground circuit, constant power and switched power.

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/blue-sea-systems-st-blade-split-bus-fuse-block-5032
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Kevin71

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Re: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2020 - 09:08:44 AM »
Thanks for all the info and good advice.  Car has a brand new wiring harness that against my wishes was then hacked up and moved around.  Time to get to work.

Offline 70chall440

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Re: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2020 - 02:00:56 PM »
Having wired a number of cars and done a lot of wiring, I will say that no harness is really plug and play except a stock harness in a stock application and even then you probably have to "adjust" some things. In the cars I build now, I buy a generic harness and then reconfigure it to suit the vehicle, that said you have to adhere to some wiring principles to get it to work well and last a long time. The principles are varied but simply put, all of the terminals must be well connected (I crimp and solder and heat shrink all my connections), all auxiliary components generally run off relays especially high draw things such as lights, fans and fuel pumps. I build connection points to connect all of my accessories that are not directly addressed through the harness, everything is fused, the gage of wire is important to keep things running/working over time. Grounds are imperative, I install 4-5 grounds throughout the vehicle (engine to frame, battery to frame or engine, dash to cowl, fuel tanks to frame, firewall to engine, etc.). I protect all of the wiring to ensure it isn't near any heat source or rub points and use grommets whenever passing through sheet metal.

My point here is that wiring while simple in concept can be complex in application and there are many "mechanics" who are not at all adept at doing it. Many feel that a 12V source is a 12V source and therefore can be tapped into without issue. They do not factor in resistance, draw, etc.

With your fans, as noted there are 2 12V requirements for a relay; one is what I call a "feed wire" and is connect directly to a battery source, usually has a heavy gage wire such as a 12 or 10 depending on draw from the accessory/device. The other is the "trigger" wire and is connected to a switched source meaning that it does not have power unless the ignition is on. Normally your on/off switch is connected on this circuit.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Kevin71

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Re: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2020 - 10:02:44 PM »
Just wanted to update everyone.  Removed all the wires except ones that belong there, and re routed them.  Got it running and now on to my next issue.  Fuses to the electric fans have blown twice when all the electrics were on.  Lights, ac, and stereo.  So be cool said to find out if the alt is providing enough amps for everything.  So any ideas on how I determine how much a ampilfier would need.   Two fans are on a fused 30 amp line.

Offline 70chall440

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Re: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2020 - 10:38:56 PM »
Easiest way is look up the specs for each piece of equipment, normally manufacturers post/provide this information. Are you using relays for your fans and amp?
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Kevin71

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Re: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2020 - 09:50:04 AM »
Would the fuse size for each piece be reliable.  I have two fans with a 30 amp fuse on each.  One amp has a 50 amp fuse and the other has a 80 amp fuse.  I looked up the specs on the amps and it doesn't seem to say anywhere what required amperage to operate would be just says max amps 80 the same size as the fuse. I have a 140 amp alt.

Offline 70chall440

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Re: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2020 - 10:54:29 AM »
If it says 80 is max, then you should have that or perhaps slightly less. Are the fans running off relays? The alternator should be good enough for what you have I would think.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Kevin71

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Re: Using Positive on Coil for a ignition source.
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2020 - 11:22:21 AM »
fans are on relays.  If I add up the fuse requirements that is 60 for the fans, 130 amps for the stereo.  That is 190 and the headlights are not on or ac.  When I was driving around at night I had the lights on and stereo then turn on the ac then the fans come on then the fuses for the fans blew.  No problem with the fan fuses when the stereo is not on.