Author Topic: 400 block with 440 crank article  (Read 27899 times)

Offline EVIL72

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400 block with 440 crank article
« on: September 24, 2005 - 11:58:33 AM »
 Here is a great article I found on making a 400 into a 451ci motor.
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                                    Mopar 451.  The motor that SHOULD be...

 The 451 is arguably the best BB Mopar engine combination available. The 451, which is made by dropping a 440 crank into a 400 block, has almost perfect design parameters.

Deck Height: The 400 block, with a deck height of 9.980 is perfect for a 3.75 stroke since a 1.80 rod ratio yields a nice light compression height of 1.355. The 440 block is really too tall for a motor of less than 500 cubic inches since its deck height of 10.72 requires a piston which has a compression height of 2.077 to make a zero deck. This means that 451 has a typical piston weight of around 550 grams instead of 800+ for the 440. BTW, the BBC has a deck height of 9.80 for the regular block and 10.2 for the "tall block". That means that the 440 is over 0.50 taller than the special Chevy tall block. The 400 block is right in between the two BBC's. The lower deck height of the 400 means less block weight. It also means the engine fits into tight engine compartments easier. It also means that the pushrods are shorter which in turn makes them lighter and more rigid. A complete 451 can weigh as much as 40 pounds less than a similiar 440 due to these differences.

R/S ratio: Okay the debate still rages but for all practical purposes, longer rods are better since they reduce side loading on the cylinder walls. A ratio of around 1.80 seems to be a decent compromise between rod length, strength, weight, etc. The 454 BBC has a stock ratio of 1.53:1 and those motors run okay. 1.80:1 is better but I'm not sure that 2:1 is worth paying extra for. The 451 allows for a 1.80:1 ratio with stock length 440 rods and it still leaves just enough room for a nice, lightweight, and strong piston.

B/S ratio: Bigger bore to stroke ratios tend to be good up to a point since they reduce the valve shrouding (too big on the bores and the combustion process falters). The 400 block has a std bore of 4.340 so it has the largest stock bore size. The 440 bore is 4.320 at std so that means it cannot be bored as large as a 400. A bore of 4.375 is a very nice bore size since rings are readily available. That is a 0.035 over 400 but it would be a 0.055 over 440. Less overbore means more strength and the possibility of additonal overbores. 4.375/3.75 is 1.17 which is pretty good. Better than the 1.06 of a 454 BBC but not as nice as the 1.33 of a 302.

Rotating weight: As mentioned above, the lower deck height allows for a more compact piston which in turn reduces the piston weight significantly. The longer 440 rod and longer stroke of the 440 crank also means that a 451 has lighter pistons than a stock 400. The typical piston/pin/rod assembly in a 400 weighs 1930 grams. The same assembly for a 451 using stock 440 rods weighs 1630 grams. (This can be made even lighter by using 0.990 pins) The reduction of 300 grams per cylinder means a weight reduction of 2400 grams, or 5.3 pounds from the assembly. An additional amount must be taken off of the crank counterweights to balance the motor. This amount is 1060 grams or 2.33 pounds for the above configuration. That means that the 451 rotating assembly is 7.6 pounds lighter than a 400. Pretty dramatic results when you mash on the loud petal from that kind of weight reduction. This is using fairly common parts. The 451 accomodates itself to more exotic parts due to the piston dimensions and rod lengths. That means you can save even more weight easier on a 451 than on a 400 or 440.

Easy to build: The parts are easy to come by since 400 blocks are quite common (and not very well liked so they tend to be cheap), 440 cranks are easy to find in the aftermarket and not too bad swap meet stuff. Stock 440 rods work but Manley, C&A, Eagle, Crower, etc make rods also if you want/need high strength stuff. Several manufacturers produce off the shelf pistons to work with this combo so that is easy. The 440 crank needs to be turned down to the 383/400 main size and the counterweights need to be turned down to a diameter of 7.250 but that is easy crank shop stuff. The crank can have a full radii put on it so it actually turns out quite strong in the process. It is possible to bore out the mains on a 400 block to accept the stock 440 crank but that seems the hard way to go. You have to machine in the tabs to hold the bearings and then you are usually stuck with an undersize crank. Besides, you still have to send the crank to the machine shop to reduce the counterweights. And to argue from a technical standpoint, bigger bearings cost horsepower due to increased friction.

Other close relations: The rod journals on the 440 crank can be turned down to BBC size of 2.200. This allows the stroke to increased or decreased by offset grinding. A max stroke of 3.90 is possible this way and that yields a 470 cubic inch motor. Manley is selling rods that make this combination work and it makes a really nice motor. The piston is even lighter since it is 0.075 shorter and so the rotating assembly weight drops again. Also, the piston pin is changed to a 0.990 pin in this combination and that drops the weight by another 30 or 40 grams per cylinder. The smaller bearing has less frictional loss and it allows for a physically smaller rod which means more camshaft clearance and more block clearance. (see how it all works out kind of cool?) This is a bit more money to build but it is still very reasonable. The Manley rods are $750 and the offset grinding is usually about $100 or so.

So there are my reasons for calling it the best of the Mopar BB's. Lighter, stiffer, smaller for not much extra money. Sounds like a winner to me.
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 I'd keep it cheap and just use 440 rods.
ROB
1972 Dodge Challenger 340ci
1970 Pro Street Duster (Under Construction)




Offline Bill Howell

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Re: 400 block with 440 crank article
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2007 - 06:58:41 PM »
Very interesting reading. What factory heads would be good here?

I realize this is an old thread, but I am thinking about opinions for my recent purchase.

nivvy

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Re: 400 block with 440 crank article
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2007 - 07:44:37 PM »
We'll that sure is a lot of info!!!!

But here is my thinking on this....

440 bored .60 over with a 4.150 crank equals 500 cubes which is bigger than a 318/340/360/383/413/426 & HEMI And all in all I just love saying I have a 500 StRoKEr..... :burnout:

I dont care to much about the specs...but when someone says whatcha got in there I grin and say 500 Wedge.... :bigsmile:
and the cringe...and yet to date no one has asked me hey! whats you rod ratio....LOL... :horse:Killer!

Just my  :2cents:

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 400 block with 440 crank article
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2007 - 10:13:57 PM »
Heads depend on what results you want , personally I would use a dish piston & the closed chamber heads , the closed chamber heads produce quench & using a 1/2 dished piston under the valves will control the compression ratio

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Offline moper

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Re: 400 block with 440 crank article
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2007 - 08:36:51 AM »
Having built a few, I'd say since that article was writen, the options have grown tremendously. You can buy a complete rotating kit with decent parts for a 451 new for less than the rods and pistons I bought for my first one. In fact, the price tag for the 505 RB I'm currently assembling was less than the first 451 I built using a factory steel 440 crank. If you use factory rods and cranks, you will need to do some clearnacing. Not a lot, but a little. Otherwise, it's a lighter big bore 440. They run great, but you can build more for the same $$ now, with better parts.

Offline Bill Howell

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Re: 400 block with 440 crank article
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2007 - 05:08:31 PM »
Having built a few, I'd say since that article was writen, the options have grown tremendously. You can buy a complete rotating kit with decent parts for a 451 new for less than the rods and pistons I bought for my first one. In fact, the price tag for the 505 RB I'm currently assembling was less than the first 451 I built using a factory steel 440 crank. If you use factory rods and cranks, you will need to do some clearnacing. Not a lot, but a little. Otherwise, it's a lighter big bore 440. They run great, but you can build more for the same $$ now, with better parts.

Tell me more..... and convince me to stroke the 400 rather than buy a 426 HEMI.
I am a head full of mush on MOPARS, been a chevy guy most of my life.
Also, please answer a question, is a 400 a BB? what is the difference in a 400 vs. 440 as far as motor mounts, assessory mounting, etc.
Thanks,
Sorry so stupid.

Offline MEK-Dangerfield

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Re: 400 block with 440 crank article
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2007 - 05:33:59 PM »
Tell me more..... and convince me to stroke the 400 rather than buy a 426 HEMI.
I am a head full of mush on MOPARS, been a chevy guy most of my life.
Also, please answer a question, is a 400 a BB? what is the difference in a 400 vs. 440 as far as motor mounts, assessory mounting, etc.
Thanks,
Sorry so stupid.


Bill,

  I'm NO expert. Stroking a 400 would be far cheaper than hunting down a 426 HEMI. A 400 is a "B" block, just like the 383. The 440 is a "RB". The motor mounts should be the same. I'm sorry I can't answer your question about accesories.


  Mike

Mike

1970 Challenger - SOLD
2016 SXT+.  1 of 524 SXT+'s in Plumb-crazy for 2016.

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 400 block with 440 crank article
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2007 - 10:43:51 PM »
the 440 & 400 are similar , the 400 is a low deck B block & the 440 is a high deck RB block all accessories & mounts work for both engines , the only parts that are different are the intake & dist , & internally the crank rods & pistons , all accessory brackets are the same between the 400 440 & 426 hemi
 the 451 using a 440 crank & rods in a 400 block  & the 500-512 " using the 440 block are very similar in cost to build & either will be 1/2 the cost of a Hemi  , 440 source has awesome pricing on a 512 Ci kit for the 440
 

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline bigblock4speedman

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Re: 400 block with 440 crank article
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2007 - 11:15:56 PM »
One thing a lot of people don't know is that the 400 has the most solid, thickest main journals of the Mopar bigblocks.  Nothing wrong with building from a 400 block, they're real good.  I like ALL Mopar bigblocks.

Offline Killer_Mopar

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Re: 400 block with 440 crank article
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2007 - 12:06:19 AM »
Tell me more..... and convince me to stroke the 400 rather than buy a 426 HEMI.
I am a head full of mush on MOPARS, been a chevy guy most of my life.
Also, please answer a question, is a 400 a BB? what is the difference in a 400 vs. 440 as far as motor mounts, assessory mounting, etc.
Thanks,
Sorry so stupid.


Yes the 400 is a big block and almost everything from a 440 will interchange except the intake manifold and a couple odds and ends like the alternator bracket, valley pan hold downs, etc. The main difference between the 400 block and 440 block is deck height....the 400 is shorter and can give you better clearance in situations...other differences like main size is outlined in the writeup. The reason to build a 400 over a Hemi is price. I am in the process of building a 451 (longblock built and waiting for the heads) and should have it on the road this spring and can probably convince you better then. But until then, I can say that from all the research I did before I started building my engine, I didnt come across anyone that had serious regrets after building a 451 and in fact a lot of them said they would never build another 440 after going 400. The biggest regret I have so far is that I used chrysler parts and when everything was said and done I would have been better off to buy a kit from 440source....hell I could have went bigger for not much more....
70 Challenger R/T SE - The never-ending project........

nivvy

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Re: 400 block with 440 crank article
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2007 - 05:13:20 AM »
I paid $3200 for my 440/500 cid rotating assembly from Ray Barton Racing...

Offline moper

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Re: 400 block with 440 crank article
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2007 - 07:14:37 AM »
Bill, the only reason to build a Hemi is you can afford to, and you want to. Wedges are lighter, stronger, cheaper, and now have a variety of heads that can satisfy almost any airflow needs. There is no reason to build a Hemi except for cruise night braggin rights, originality of a car, or emotional reasons. This was not always so, but  it's a fact now-a-days. I will build one for my Barracuda eventually, for reason number one. Nothing greets the public better than an 8 barrel Hemi. But performance wise, you can get almost twice the performance for 1/2 the money. A 550hp Hemi will cost between 12K and 18K, depending who builds it. A 550 hp B or RB wedge will cost between $7K and $10K again, depending who builds it. And it will be easier to get headers and mounts for.   The 505/512 kit from 440 source was $1400, with optional extras and shipping $1700. It needed $100 worth of rod work, and balancing (no Mallory). So using all 440 Source parts, it's ready to drop in at $2100. I may however, use a different piston in the future. He previously sold Ross which has had delivery and quality issues as of late from what I understand, so now they have their own line of forged pistons. And I dont really like them that much.

Offline v8440

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Re: 400 block with 440 crank article
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2007 - 02:52:46 PM »
A 511 (or is it 512?) can be built for roughly the same price as a 451 if you use a 440source kit, using a common 400 block.  That would be a 4.25" stroke with big block chevy rod journals (smaller than chrysler rods, means less clearance issues with the block) in a 400 block bored .030" over.  With a decent head for the application it would be quite easy to make 600 hp on pump gas without a terribly lopey cam.  All of this would be in a package no different dimensionally than a 383. 

Offline Bill Howell

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Re: 400 block with 440 crank article
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2007 - 03:05:46 PM »
Thanks guys, this is certainly food for thought.
I know that a 426 is just a ego thing but I would love to have one nevertheless. However, having ordered a XV stage II suspension kit now, I have to look at total cost and just how deep I really want to be in a 72 Charger. The 400 would certainly be the best bang for the buck and if I really like the car down the road, could do a 426 later.
Someone give me some clues on heads and camshafts.
I will probably go with a Tremic 5 speed since I love to shift gears.
Thanks again for all the help.

Offline cowboy

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Re: 400 block with 440 crank article
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2007 - 03:58:31 PM »
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I'm driving a 383 cui. with a 4.375 borr  and stroke 3,91 = 470 cui.

That kick a..  :ylsuper:
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