How do you guys feel about clones?

Author Topic: How do you guys feel about clones?  (Read 129907 times)

Offline Challenger6pak

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #195 on: March 11, 2011 - 11:48:08 PM »
MY  :2cents: My  :2cents: = 2 cts.
opinions are like (0) and there are a lot of them.
For the record:  :2cents:+ :2cents:=4.  At least you have an opinion.  You deserve credit for that.  :thumbsup:  Nice pair of cars you have.
1969 Sport Satellite H code convertible, 1970 Cuda 440+6, 1970 Challenger R/T 440+6, 1970 Challenger 383 R/T auto, 1970 Challenger R/T 383 4 speed,1971 Challenger convertible.




Offline buddydog

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #196 on: March 12, 2011 - 10:38:56 AM »
Howdy folks,

Just chiming in with a stripped, ex-dragged, beat to crap no fender tag bearing 318 Gran Coupe.... What was it worth? I don't know but I paid $2000.00. What am I building? A rebuilt 440, Shaker, Dana 60, etc. What will it be worth when I'm finished? To be honest, I am not building this car with the consideration it will be sold for profit.

Over the last year I've begun working at a legit automotive restoration and race shop (mostly early Porsche but we set up cup cars and custom Porsche racers) and I am learning a great deal about fab work, car values and restoration costs. One thing I know is that what I have chosen to do is a pointless exercise if I intended to ever make a profit. The saying is... "spend all that money and effort but what will you have in the end?" In my case, just a 318 non-numbers matching car.

I don't care. I have two small kids, a house payment and I will not be able to afford to buy a completed car like what I am building for decades! I am happy, my kids like it and I get exactly what I want without modifying and destroying the value of a numbers car.

Just my opinion but I believe if you look at all the customized, Hemi cloned, roll bar, t-top, lowered, 4 link, stuff out there that it is better to do it to a low performance car than something that had some value. There are plenty of skeletons rusting away out there, save one and enjoy it! (Hopefully) You are never going to change the VIN or tags so you get what you get and love the crap out of it!

G

Offline tommyg29

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #197 on: March 12, 2011 - 01:57:14 PM »
Howdy folks,

Just chiming in with a stripped, ex-dragged, beat to crap no fender tag bearing 318 Gran Coupe.... What was it worth? I don't know but I paid $2000.00. What am I building? A rebuilt 440, Shaker, Dana 60, etc. What will it be worth when I'm finished? To be honest, I am not building this car with the consideration it will be sold for profit.

Over the last year I've begun working at a legit automotive restoration and race shop (mostly early Porsche but we set up cup cars and custom Porsche racers) and I am learning a great deal about fab work, car values and restoration costs. One thing I know is that what I have chosen to do is a pointless exercise if I intended to ever make a profit. The saying is... "spend all that money and effort but what will you have in the end?" In my case, just a 318 non-numbers matching car.


I don't care. I have two small kids, a house payment and I will not be able to afford to buy a completed car like what I am building for decades! I am happy, my kids like it and I get exactly what I want without modifying and destroying the value of a numbers car.

Just my opinion but I believe if you look at all the customized, Hemi cloned, roll bar, t-top, lowered, 4 link, stuff out there that it is better to do it to a low performance car than something that had some value. There are plenty of skeletons rusting away out there, save one and enjoy it! (Hopefully) You are never going to change the VIN or tags so you get what you get and love the crap out of it!

G


Great sounding project car!
Sounds like you are saving it from oblivion, so build whatever will make you happy  :2thumbs:

What year is it?
oh, and btw the price is great too, but the final value will be totally dependent on the quality of your build, and what the market is like when you finish it.
Who knows? But if you do a good job of it that car would be a $30k plus car in todays market, esp if its a 70 or 71 with a 4sp and a popular color.
But it could easily cost you $30k in parts alone to get there, not including your time and labor, but that part of it is priceless!? Right?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011 - 01:59:49 PM by tommyg29 »
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline AARuFAST

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #198 on: March 12, 2011 - 08:27:57 PM »
Got to hand it to the guys that restore a rust bucket any make.  Many 72 to 74's are being neglected because the horsepower was reduced. Build it into a Clone, Tribute, Pro Touring, Resto MOD, Pro Street.

"Don't Crush Um Restore Um"
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011 - 08:55:42 PM by AARuFAST »
1970 AAR Cuda
1970 Gran Coupe Ragtop. 1 of 66
Gran Cpe Convertible 1 yr only.

" I Want to Ride "

" I tried to be normal once...
it was the most boring
2 minutes of my life!!!!"

Offline EB3-GranCoupe

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #199 on: March 15, 2011 - 12:28:05 PM »
Quote
Just chiming in with a stripped, ex-dragged, beat to crap no fender tag bearing 318 Gran Coupe


 :useless:

Quote
What am I building? A rebuilt 440, Shaker, Dana 60, etc


I'm with ya (i only left out the shaker & dana):


Offline GranCuda1970

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #200 on: March 15, 2011 - 03:36:03 PM »
:useless:

I'm with ya (i only left out the shaker & dana):





Ditto!!! :smilielol:

Offline buddydog

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #201 on: March 15, 2011 - 10:38:53 PM »

Great sounding project car!
Sounds like you are saving it from oblivion, so build whatever will make you happy  :2thumbs:

What year is it?
oh, and btw the price is great too, but the final value will be totally dependent on the quality of your build, and what the market is like when you finish it.
Who knows? But if you do a good job of it that car would be a $30k plus car in todays market, esp if its a 70 or 71 with a 4sp and a popular color.
But it could easily cost you $30k in parts alone to get there, not including your time and labor, but that part of it is priceless!? Right?

Thanks for the support! It was a 70, but I've got the gills in, tail lights swapped and have started the headlight buckets so away we go. Labor-wise it is all on me, up to and including paint. Be not afraid I say! Learn as I go and try not to make too many mistakes.

Geoff

Offline EB3-GranCoupe

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #202 on: March 16, 2011 - 07:02:02 AM »
Geoff,

It sounds like it is going to turn out real nice.  :clapping: 

Now, I showed you mine, show us yours!   

Offline Jesus H Chrysler

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #203 on: March 16, 2011 - 09:40:14 AM »
This thread is about opinions, right?  Well here's mine.

Clones are what helped save the Mopar hobby.  If it wasn't for so many people restoring these cars, there would be no aftermarket support for them.  Companies that reproduce 71 Cuda fenders arent doing it for the few who have real 71 Cudas.  They're doing it for all the people who WANT 71 Cuda fenders for their Cuda clone project.  There is a line drawn down the middle of the hobby. (Collector cars in general, not just Mopars.)  On the one hand there are collectors who view them as commodities to be traded and value originality above all else.  They view the cars as works of art much like a Picasso.  They are rarely driven and kept in good condition until the time comes to sell and move on to the next investment.  The other side of the coin is the enthusiast who would be happy with their chosen car even if it's one of the "less desirable" models.  They derive their enjoyment from the vehicle itself, not any objective value it has.  Most of us fall somewhere on this spectrum.  Of course everyone wants a valuable car, but for those of us that just want what we want and don't care about originality I feel it's best to start with something that has less objective value.  For example take my car.  It's originally a Rallye Red 72 Challenger that was born with a 318 automatic, A/C and not much else.  Even in mint condition it's value is less than an original Hemi car that was stripped to the bare shell.  If originality was the goal I'd be spending a fortune to restore the car back to factory (including welding the roof back on) and end up with a car worth far less than the sum of it's parts.  Instead I now have a car that is a lot of fun to work on and drive.  I may be an illegitimate member of the big block E-body convertible club, but I'm a member!  I made a decision long ago. I am not a museum curator and I have no desire to own an original numbers matching high dollar car.  I would be far too nervous about "depreciating my investment" to ever enjoy the car.

Another positive to the clone debate is enjoyment vs value.  I can drive my car every day of the week and not lose value due to mileage depreciation.  If by some horrific chance it gets totalled I don't lose the value of a real $200,000+ V code convertible.  But I do thank those that spend the big coin restoring those cars because without them I wouldn't be able to buy new Six Pack carbs for mine!  I hold no grudge or ill will towards the purists who look down on my car for being "all wrong".  Those purists are who demanded the highest quality reproductions for their own restorations and made possible the ability to get parts for mine as well.  When all is said and done, those who collect cars as if they were old coins or stamps derive their own enjoyment from them as I do simply driving mine.

That being said, does anyone know where I can get my VIN restamped as JS27V2B...






Kidding!!!
Yes I own a 1972 Dodge Challenger Convertible T/A S/E with a 440 Six Pak. Can it get any more wrong?

{OO /===\ OO}
(OO==> <==OO)



Greg, in the middle of MA has:
1970 Dodge Coronet 440 "Zom Bee"
1972 Dodge Challenger convertible 440 5 speed.
1973 Dodge Challenger 318 "Brown Bomber"
2012 Dodge Challenger R/T Classic Blackberry Pearl.
2001 Jeep Wrangler locked, lifted and lighted.  "Jeep is a registered trademark of Chrysler Corporation"

Offline GranCuda1970

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #204 on: March 16, 2011 - 09:50:31 AM »
Well said. :swaying:

Offline tommyg29

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #205 on: March 16, 2011 - 04:50:29 PM »
excellent points all.
I love the fact I could drive my 40 year old cuda  :burnout: which "only" has 5,000 miles on the odometer  :roflsmiley: :misbehaving: (since the gauges were rebuilt 8 years ago)
every day if I wanted, but choose to only drive it to shows and cruise-ins for the most part, plus... I look forward to the once a week or so I drive it a few miles just to keep everything circulated!

I wouldnt do that with a $200k investment.
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline EB3-GranCoupe

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #206 on: March 16, 2011 - 08:45:19 PM »
Quote
I may be an illegitimate member of the big block E-body convertible club, but I'm a member!


Better be careful, we might have to send the Mod Squad after you in their 1972 Challenger onvertible......

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gtotiger/4766288484/

{Can the factory make a clone?????   Hmmmmm.....    :stirpot:   }
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011 - 08:55:21 PM by EB3-GranCoupe »

Offline polarbear123

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #207 on: March 17, 2011 - 12:13:35 PM »
Do you want to hear my story? I am going to tell it any way. The first car I ever owned was a 68 Sports satellite 383 4 speed. When I was 22, I decided to sell the 68 and buy a 1974 Cuda 360. I want down to the dealership and put in my order with everything I wanted in it. Seven weeks later I got a call telling me the Cuda was discontinued and I wasn’t going to get it. You can guess I was a little PO that I wasn’t going to get my dream car. Well time went by got married had kids paid for college. Last son is graduating in May so I decided it was time to get that Cuda. It was a 1970, 318 car that had a 73 truck 440 installed. I had the engine rebuilt to a 450+ HP “Cuda” sort of. When I go to cruise night I tell everybody that looks at the car where it came from, and what it was. Nobody cares that it used to be a Barracuda and not a “Cuda” to me they are both the same car with different options. I will keep this car until I can’t drive it anymore and then give it to my son. Who helps me work on it. I love this car and it has made be feel young again. I can’t wait for the weekend to drive it. You want to be a purist and put me down for calling it a Cuda go a head I don’t care, that’s your problem not mind.


Offline shadango

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #208 on: March 17, 2011 - 01:23:08 PM »
whats a clone?

According to Merriam Webster online one definition of a clone is :

"One that appears to be a copy of an original form."

So clone doesnt necessarily mean "exact".

We all need to keep something in mind:

The value on ANYTHING is only as high as "someone" wants to pay.

Back in the 80s you couldn't GIVE these cars away, even the "more desireable cars of today".

There are so many nuances and levels you can go to.

I dont consider a ground up rotisserie, using all the right paint daubs etc "original" at all.  I dont car if its a hemi cuda or that old dart that appeared in the Mopar Action mag.

Its not original anymore, though its cool to look at.

"Original" is the "survivor" cars.....those cars, regardless of what model it is "should" hold the most value, since its a 40 year old car in ots original form except for maybe plugs and floor mats.  They may have some rust under the hood or on the wheel wells.

Most of the rotisserie cars being done, when completed, are WAY better quality wise than the car was originally.

But the cars restored to "showroom condition"? They are not original anymore , period.  The value is all artificial and will dry up when people stop wanting them. That is the only reason the value is high....people want them.

The "clone" is just another iteration, IMHO, of the same thing.....they are worth whatever people will pay for them.  As fewer of the "real" cars are available, clones will draw more money because people LIKE the look, the engine, whatever.  All the "real" cars will be tucked away in collections, undriven for the most part.

Except for the issue of selling something that isnt what someone claims it is, we shouldnt care if the cars our Mopar-family has are all original survivors, resto-mods, "clones", whatever.     What matters is that we enjoy them.

I love looking at them all.....original/survivors, rotisseries, resto-mods, Barracuda-turned-Cudas, and every other iteration.....none of it takes away the joy I get looking at them all.

The grin I get on my face when I drive my 72 frankenstein car is PRICELESS though I probably have more into the car than it is "worth" compared to the cars currently getting high-dollar.    So mine is worth the MOST!  :)



« Last Edit: March 17, 2011 - 02:34:21 PM by shadango »

Offline the_engineers

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Re: How do you guys feel about clones?
« Reply #209 on: March 19, 2011 - 10:06:10 AM »
I think JHC nailed it. My car started life as a lowly 318 auto without AC. The guy who helped me finish it has a numbers '69 Hemi Roadrunner. At shows, my family and I would walk around, talk to people and generally have a good time while he was stuck guarding his car for fear something would happen to it.
He has come to "hate" his car. Can't drive it, can't leave it at a show and can't sell it for what he feels he should get out of it.
He is now looking for an E-body to drop a crate Hemi into so that he can actually enjoy owning a Hemi car.
There is a lot to be said for having a car that is a blank slate without the fear of devaluing it.
Brooks

1971 'Cuda 360
2004 Infiniti G35 6-spd Coupe
2001 Toyota Solara Convertible
2002 GMC Savana 1500 Explorer Hightop Conversion
1972 Dodge Dart Swinger...keeping the Slant.  Rocking the turbos.