Body Work, Time, and a Budget

[zerfetzen]

Hi all, I need some advice.  I've never restored a car before, and am learning so, so much, and having fun doing it.  I'm about to get my car back from a race team who rebuilt my motor, redid my engine compartment, and a few other things.  However, they can't do the body work there, and I'm itching to get back to learning how to do it myself.

The only 3 problems are:

1. I don't have a garage, but a car port, and the apartment complex has declared "no working on cars...at all."
2. I have enough money to make a few things happen, but not thousands of dollars worth
3. I've never done body work before.

However, I have a neighbor who knows about cars, and says body work won't be that bad at all.  Just the same, I'd rather hear what the world's best MOPAR e-body club thinks.  Here are my questions:

1. Not knowing anything about primer, and the final coat over it, whatever that's called, can I do one body part at a time, seal it, and drive it to work every day while I work on the next body part the next weekend?  And when all done, take it to a MAACO or something like that for a few hundred dollars (I know that sounds so horrible, I hate the idea too), and let that bide me some time doing other things like interior, while I save up for a real paint job?
2. Assuming I pick things up well, is there a way, without owning your own garage or knowing people in this city, to paint it on my own and not screw it up?  If so, are there some good articles online that helped you through, books you recommend I buy, etc.?

If you were in my position, how would you go about this?  Thanks.

[Steve]

Oh boy...interesting perdicament.

Doing prep work on a daily driver is probably a loosing proposition....at least if you want it to come out nice. The amount of work you'll need to do depends on the codition of the car.

Here are a couple rules of thumb:

1. Rust must be cut out and new metal welded in, at least if you want the job to last.
2. Painting over multiple layers of paint can be risky. The ideal situation is to strip the car down to bare metal.
3. Body work is very messy and there is no way to "hide" what you are doing from your neighbors! Doing body work in your apartment complex will probably get you evicted! As some will recall, I've been busted once by the county for doing "extensive auto repair" at my house.
4. Few shops will want to touch the body work on your car since it's really a restoration project and not a paint project. A good job will cost at least $5K. Rust repair not included.
5. Laying down a cheesey paint job is a real bad idea because you have just made your car look worse than if it were in primer, the value of the car has just been reduced relative to if it were in original paint or primer, and fixing cheesey body work will cost you more than if you did it right the first time.

This is a tough situation. The value of these cars is such that skimping on paint and body work is not a good idea. doing good paint and body work takes a lot of time or a lot of money. Of course, you know what you want out of the car and you know how good you need the paint and body work to be. Personally, I think that the minimum standard is fit and finish at least as good as the factory, which isn't that hard to achieve. the big deal is getting the panels straight.

[Carlwalski]

Steve made some great points and I agree. If you've never done it before and you want the car to be strong and have a reliable structure you may want to think about a professional body shop do your work.
Heck, even our tech wizard Chryco doesn't do the paint side of things, everything but, so it's no biggie.

I myself got everything done but the part I wanted most done by the pros was the paint.
It is one of the, or the most important parts of the resto.
You could have a HEMI with excellent interior but with out a good coat the car is naked.

I would go around getting quotes & asking local car clubs who they get to do their work and go from there.


NZ440R/T

 

[zerfetzen]

Thanks for the suggestions.  I'm definitely not doing the work in my complex.  My neighbor and I were talking about driving it out to an abandoned parking lot with a little power sander, bondo, sand paper, and primer, and just prepping it until it's straight, and being very finicky.  And like you noted, if I go this route, each body part will be stripped down to the metal.  Although it is primered right now, the seller must have done it in a hurry because many little areas are not straight, and he wasn't very thorough.

If we do a good job prepping it, then I could take it to a pro body shop, because all they're doing is painting, right?

BTW, the way the front end was done, minor rust was scraped off, POR-15 was brushed on, sanded, then undercoating was sprayed on.  I will do the same thing to my entire undercarriage.

The only body parts that need any rust attention are the lower parts of the rear quarters and just a smidgeon on the lower front fenders.  Just the same, I was going to replace the entire front fenders with fiberglass (not sure where's the best place to buy them from), and the rear quarters (from the 90 degree turn down) with fiberglass.  So far I was thinking www.showcars-bodyparts.com, if they're ok.

Just to give all perspectives, the local MOPAR club that I joined, the head of it worked on my car, and he races professionally.  His 2 cents were that paying thousands for paint jobs is highway robbery, and they painted their race car (another '73 'Cuda) 9 years ago, and it still looks brand new, in a garage for a couple hundred bucks, plus a compressor.  Believe it or not, it was they who suggested that on a budget and without my own garage, I might just want to prep it myself, cheap paint it with MAACO or something, and get back to it, later.  I wish they would paint my car, but they say they don't do that anymore, so what to do, what to do?

I really care about this restoration, but of course, funds are always a concern.  I'm just trying to fairly toss around everyone's advice and make the best decision I can.  Thanks for any thoughts.

[crcarch]

I did all the prep-work myself when I had my car repainted the first time.  It was a big hassle, but it saved me some dough. I stripped it down to metal and simply spray painted primer on it as I went, so that it wouldn't rust.  It wasn't a daily driver so image wasn't a concern.  That way, when I delivered it to the body shop, they could see all the issues and removing the light coat of primer wasn't a big deal. I'd leave the rust repair to the experts unless you know your way around a welder.  Bad body work is more expensive to repair than a bad body.

If you're going to have a shop paint it for you, look around.  They're out there but can be hard to find.  Talk to guys at the local shows; if you see a nice paint job, stop 'em on the street and ask.  Typically if a guy's spent a wad on a custom paint job and you've noticed it enough to ask about it, he's probably more than happy to talk about it.  I found my body shop that way.

You can also get a decent paint job by doing it yourself.  My buddy's (GM guys, but I don't hold that against them) painted a Cutlass in a garage recently and it's buffing out beautifully.  They also did a flame job on Vette which turned out nicely, too. Check out the attached photos. You have to invest or rent some good equipment and spend the bucks on good materials, but it's a hellofa lot cheaper than a shop.  It also helps to know the process.  There are several books on Eastwood's site as well as on Amazon that can step you through it.  Eastwood even has some instructional videos, I think.  Good Luck.

[Steve]

No offense to your friend with the race car, but he is drastically oversimplifying things. The other issue is that everyone's definition of a "straight panel" is different. For example, a good bodyman would probably spend 20+ hours blocking a single fender to get it straight. That's the kind of work that seperates a good job from an OK job. The parking lot idea is admirable, but I don't think that's going to cut it. You're going to need a compressor to spray primer on your work surfaces once you get them stripped. Ideally, you would do the "rough" fill directly to metal, then epoxy primer, then use a high-build surfacer, then do fine body work (for many, many hours), then sealer, then base, then clear. Given that you want to drive the car and it will be parked outside, you're in a tough position because fine bodywork is done on a type of primer that is NOT water resistant. these primers are porous and have a lot of talc in them, which will wick in water. You don't do fine body work on epoxy primer, which is water resitant, because epoxy will not sand and feather fine enough to allow you to block out the panels. Again, the methods I'm describing are for top notch paint jobs. 90% of a paint job's quality is the prep work, but the prep work is also the most labor intensive and tough part. Laying down paint is relatively easy, but you really need a booth to get a super quality job unless you like lots of wet sanding between coats. I figure that my materials cost alone, including patch panels, will exceed $3k when all is said and done. I just wrote a check for $1,100 yesterday when I picked up the unibody from the blast shop. I dropped off my doors and hood and stuff...that's extra $$$.

With regard to the rust, what you describe is just what you see. Wait till you strip the car down. Chances are that the extension panels in the trunk are also rotted. You will likely also find rust in the window channels. All of that stuff needs to be cut out and new metal welded in if you want to do it right. Rust is like an iceberg...you only see 10% of it!

I know this may sound crazy, but I would consider leaving the car in primer and driving it around. I think that given your current situation, doing paint on the car will make actually look worse. Primered cars are kind of cool anyways.

[zerfetzen]

No sweat, I'm sure the racing team wouldn't take any offense to anything, because they are meticulous.  They're good guys and didn't charge me more than $350 to take out and install my engine (it's not a business to them, just a love).  The actual rebuild took a couple weeks at another racing team, but this father and son have worked on this since the end of October, and I'm sure many sloppy shops would take out and toss in an engine in a couple days.  These guys are quality all the way, and I think they're the best.  From the firewall forward, my Cuda's as solid as brand new.  Now it's my turn again ...

On the other hand, I wish my skills were that good, but I'm just a beginner.  And like you all say, the last thing I want to do is make things worse.  I have no idea how I'll handle this part of the restoration, but like you say, maybe the best thing is just to leave it in primer as it is until I have saved up enough for a pro job.  Of course, I'll never get my hands dirty or learn this way either.  Who knows what'll happen, but thanks for all the good advice.

PS
That's a nice paintjob on both cars, but I've never seen flames as cool as on the vette.

[Stacked440]

O lordy...there is no human way to make an accurate budget for a project car...you can make a ballpark guess but as i've seen in 3 restorations...small things ALWAYS show up, sometimes it seems that plugging holes with 1 dollar bills would be cheaper   spose that wouldn't last though   I have no good way to work on a project car except two tips, one...invest in some gallon ziploc bags...and label E-V-E-R-Y single piece and put the bags in one big box or all in one area so you aren't searching for them later, and #2...don't do cheap shortcuts, you will be kicking yourself later and it just hurts to have to do it over because you aren't happy with results, biggest one is paint, nothing like a nice base-clear paintjob, urethane enamel should only be used in areas like engine bay and underside, places that are constantly in stone bombardment.  Just my

[GCC]

Zerf:  Steve has really hit all the keys points concerning your project.  A few other things to keep in mind...  With a fresh paint job, every last piece that gets assembled to the car will need attention, because new paint will make marginal bumpers and trim look like junk.  Bumpers, emblems, stainless, seals, trim rings, mirrors, etc... you'll wind up with a huge re-chrome bill or a huge new parts bill just to replace this stuff.    >:(There is a ton to know to get a body straight for paint and another 1/2 ton on the paint work itself, but I applaude your desire to learn and have fun doing it     I was at your dilema several years ago (more like 15  ) with my '70 Cutlass; it took about 5 years + a new compressor + welder + $9k in parts & paint.  I know, I know, I should not be talking about GM's on this website, but the Gran Coupe is next and the bodywork is underway.  I'd love to see you do the whole car; just be sure you know what you are getting into.