Author Topic: 440 6pk setup (Read 10450 times)

cudaaah · « **on:** February 16, 2006 - 10:41:27 PM »

I know this topic has been addressed, but thought I'd start w/ a clean slate.

I've had it w/ all the local experts and the numerous opinions of how to get more HP out of my engine. My 70 cuda has a 73, 440, 8:1 block, 4spd, 355 rear. I've bought parts, only to find other opinions on what " I really should have bought!" I've torn apart the engine and put back together. I've heard I need more compression to effectively use the 6pac.

I've decided to break the bank and have the entire engine rebuilt( hopefully properly. I have a new 6 pac set up, and have dropped the car off @ Bill Mcanally Racing ( NAPA Nascar builder ). When dropping off my car, I was entertained w/ their multiple Nascar cars in repair, multiple engines, fabrication dept. etc. I think I can trust their expertise on building a motor.

Down side, they build Chevy's...after meeting w/ staff and owner Bill, I feel comfortable they'll do a proper build. I will be talking w/ the builder directly about what my wants are.

Although just for the street, I do want to notice a difference, I'm guessing my engine is running about 275HP. I'd like some input on where I should be going w/ HP (400-500?), and specs on Cam and heads, that will "SHOW ME THE POWER!"

I was thinking a stroker kit from mopar performance, along w/ some new heads ( alluminum ? ). Edlebrock,Indy or Mopar.

My goal is to have the car well built and matched properly. I want to NOTICE a difference!

Thanks for any advice.
Cudaaah

Chryco Psycho · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2006 - 11:25:32 PM »

there are a ton of variables , first where do you want the powerband RPM wise ? reallly the 6 pack works great up to 6000 -6500 range so you need a cam with a 2000-6500 powerband approx
do you want to stay with a hyd cam or use a Solid grind ?
stroking is un-nessisary to get what you want but it is an option ,
Alum heads have their +&- points as well , you need more compression & I always prefer a flat top piston & a closed chamber head [preferable Heart shaped , again this eliminates Eddy ]which basically eliminates the Eddy heads unless you are building a stroker , you will need Cometic gaskets to seal alum heads also & they are not cheap , almost all alum heads need custom pushrods , other options include using a worked set of production iron heads or an aftermarket head liek the Mopar Stage 5 or Indy SR & EZ heads in Iron not alum for less $$ but still with good Hp gains . I feel you need mid 9:1 or higher compression ratio with iron & close to 1 point higher with alum heads generally a 76-78 cc alum head works best unless you are building a stroker
the rest is just basics , make sure all the clearances are right & the machining is good & the rotating assy is balanced & the block straight , & squared , replace rod bolts use plasma moly rings & forged pistons & a good oiling system with new oil pump, windage tray etc

cudaaah · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2006 - 09:19:05 AM »

Thanks,

I don't want to get ridiculus w/ the $, but since I'm having a professional build I want what is best. As far as power band range, what are the driving characteristics like w/ the differnt options? I'm assuming since I'm not building a race car, I'm better off w/ a higher power range so I don't break loose at the start. Is this correct?

If it's OK, maybe I can PM you after I talk w/ the builder and get your opinion.

Cudaaah

71383bee · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2006 - 10:43:46 AM »

cuda,

Alot depends on your needs. A 4 speed 3.55 geared Ebody is a very nice street friendly combo that wont kill you on the freeway.

However, it seems that you don't quite know what your ultimate goal is. Every option has pro's and cons that counteract each other. If you want an 11 second 1/4 hauller then top end power is the route with a more aggressive engine that won't necessarily behave as well on the street. If you want a cruiser then you need a more mild combo with good vacum and affordable economy.

Aside from the block and head issues your cam choice will probably be the most critical here and it all depends on what your needs are.

Like chryco indicates, you definately need compression in their. I am in the same boat you are and i wish i had the funds to pull my 383 and do it over again. Low compression is a bear to deal with.

70RTdroptop · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2006 - 11:04:54 AM »

Here's what I did with my 6-pack motor when I had it rebuilt last September. I wanted it to be very streetable, with lots of power, so kept everything fairly close to stock specs, but did a few upgrades as far as individual components.
Block and heads checked for cracks
Block align-bored and decked
Block bored .030 over
Speed-Pro forged pistons
.444 lift hydraulic cam
Melling oil pump
Dual valve springs
3-angle valve job, new guides and seats

The engine runs very strong, we're guessing hosepower is in the 430 range, nice idle. Compression is about 10:1 Runs great on pump premium. I'm very happy with the way the engine turned out.That low compression you have in your engine is probably the biggest obstacle right now. If you've still got those smog-engine heads, get rid of them,too, and get some that flow better ( 915's , I think, are the good heads and / or 906's ) Well, that's my

Hope that helps!

cudaaah · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2006 - 10:59:12 PM »

Thanks, I am paying attention to all the advice...Part of the problem is I haven't had a cuda in 20 sum years, and don't know what to expect. I know I'd like to have it handle like a newer car, and have the impressive Kick when I want it. Over the last 6 mnths I've heard alot of variation.

I do want something I can enjoy on the street and that will be dependable.

I've put on new KYB shocks, new leaf springs, front and rear sway bars, SS disc brakes just being put on, all around, along w/ PST super front end kit.

I'm leaning towards Edlebrock Alluminum heads, Forged pistons, I've already got the 6pac, Cloyes double roller chain, and a purple cam. I'm going w/ a high output oil pump, and just trying to decide on whether or not to go w/ a stroker kit.

I think the "kid" comes out w/ the desire to have the"BADDEST"...but I'm listening to the advice given here.

Not only that... I've told my wife this is all costing under $1000.

Thanks
I'll keep you updated
Cudaaaah

ESGEE · « **Reply #6 on:** February 19, 2006 - 03:23:56 AM »

"Not only that... I've told my wife this is all costing under $1000." Now thats a motified truth that sometimes is needed

71383bee · « **Reply #7 on:** February 19, 2006 - 11:29:58 AM »

I think your on the right path. The main thing you need is compression. I think with 10:1 compression and a decent cam you will be amazed haw well the car will run as is and it will be easier to tune...TRUST ME! Even with a six pack! Low compression with good flowing heads and a healthy cam is an absolute bear to tune.

cudaaah · « **Reply #8 on:** February 19, 2006 - 12:46:57 PM »

I'm going to 10:1 since I'll have the alluminum heads. Obviously I want to be able to use pump gas..

How does compression help w/ tuning?

Chryco Psycho · « **Reply #9 on:** February 19, 2006 - 11:36:22 PM »

you will need a minimum 10.5:1 with alum heads
compression helps with low end response & more complete use of fuel
you can make a LOT of power without alum heads & Eddys are not on my favorites list spend a little more & get a REal head if you are going to alum heads

71383bee · « **Reply #10 on:** February 20, 2006 - 09:00:37 AM »

CP is right on. Initial timing is very sensative to compression and cam overlap and i have found out the hard way that low compression with a decent cam will require lots of initial timing. For nearly 2 years since i had the car running i was fighting a part throttle stumble from a stop or rolling stop and it was a bear to diagnose. This is with 3 different carbs ranging from a TQ to a Holley to finally a Demon. All carbs gave me the same problem. Finally after a lot of advice from some very knowledgable folks I got it figured. My car likes 24 initial and 36 total all in by 2600 RPM. typically mopars like initial around 18. For years i was convinced it was a carb issues when all along it was a matter of my timing with the low compression.

I agree with CP's assesment on the heads. Edelbrocks are now not the end all be all of heads anymore. Indy, Bulldog, and others have developed some very good heads that trully are bolt on deals. I really like what i have heard and read about Indy's EZ series and am seriously considering them for my near future.

That being said I don't think you need a lot of work for your 440+6 to make it a street killer. Primarily compression and a decent cam if the bottom end is all okay. Personally I am partial to Racer Brown's Cams even though they are a little old school. My rebuild experience is a little bit limited compared to a lot of guys on the web so i would defeinately pay attention to CP's or others advice here.

cudaaah · « **Reply #11 on:** February 20, 2006 - 10:07:51 AM »

I will look into the Indy ez heads. So you think 10.5:1 is what I should do?

I'm still learning what makes up compression..Tell me if i'm correct; the heads I choose + gasket, more specifically the head chamber size( lower = more compression), the pistons I choose (forged), vs flat top. and the stoker kit, are what will determine my compression.

In my many purchases of parts this past year, I bought a Mopar purple camDCC-4120237. The specs are as follows : Hydrolic, 292 duration, .509 lift, 108 cntrline.

Any opinions on these specs, I really do appreciate this advice, and understand there's no hidden agenda w/ what's given to me from CC.com. I'm hoping this cam choice will work w/ what I'm going for w/ the engine.

Thanks
Cudaaah

Chryco Psycho · « **Reply #12 on:** February 20, 2006 - 10:29:15 AM »

pistons are available in forged or cast , & flat top , dome or dished basically the combination of the piston & head volume + head gasket thickness determines compression
Alum heads absorb more heat then iron heads so the compression has to be raised to compensate for heat loss to the alum
Indy EZ heads are a better choice than the Eddy

Follicly Challenged · « **Reply #13 on:** February 20, 2006 - 11:29:44 AM »

I vote "skip the Eddy's" as well. Cast crank, LY rods W/ARP hardware fine as per your '73 engine.

Go for an INDY "EZ" head, and get the closed chamber. Use a Flat Top Piston with a compression Distance of 2.02 or so, KB's make something around there, and are probably OK if no Nitrous contemplated, KB's also utilize an "accumulator chamber" between the compression rings, a "plus" on a street engine. YEP, thats that "big groove" between the ring lands on those Pistons, But pay attention to the top ring endgap.

Square the block to the 10.70 range, about a .020" cut. This will result "most times", in the piston being approx .030-.040" downhole for around .070-.080" quench, which is OK on "that" bore volume BB, using a composition gasket, (Fel-Pro OK), @ .038" for the street with "those heads" and better port balance.
The Piston @ 2.02 C.D. may still be .045" or so down, so this is where the "mock-up" and measuring is done, so you can "set" your C.R. "somewhere" above the 10:1 mark. Block "nominal" deck heights varied greatly from factory, so you'll either have to "mock-up" or use a BHJ fixture if your shop has one, prior, or during decking.

Anyways, what you're targeting here is a "plus" 10:1/EZ headed 440. DON'T use LESS than 10:1 for the EZ aluminum head, 10.5:1 is MUCH BETTER ! Cooling passages are far to "refined" on the siamesed exhaust ports. Too much heat pulled from the combustion process.

MATH;
2.43 cc per .010" of cyl @ .030" overbore

.030" over 440 @ 913 cc
INDY EZ head @ 75 cc

I forget ! YOU CHECK !
Comp. GSKT @ approx 10 cc
KB F.Top Piston Flycut @ 6 cc.
"downhole" Piston Volume @ (.030") 3 X 2.43 = 7.5 cc
TOTAL CLRC. VOLUME @ 98.5 CC

Again, YOU CHECK ! "get 'em to pour It"

Compression ratio @ 10.2:1, Cut the heads or whatever to "set" exactly where you wanna be, Higher ? 10.5 is nice ! Adjustable valvetrain a must for geometry and lifter preload.
I vote just the 'Ol standby 484"/284 Mopar hyd cam with the 6 pack @ 6000 rpm. It'll like around 32 degrees total timing on pump premium fuel, more is irrelavant rather than "manners" in traffic, EZ's like the cyl. wall exposed to a little more heat anyways. More timing is faster, but more tempermental.
Nice running "streeter".

Just my 2 cents, I'm sure you're shop who does NASCAR stuff knows their "basics", as really, this is pretty basic stuff.

FC out.

firefighter3931 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 20, 2006 - 05:39:34 PM »

Ideal quench occurs at .040 piston to head clearance. This means that you need to zero deck the block and run a .040 composition head gasket. The problem with small chamber heads is that you end up with too much static compression with an off the shelf piston....assuming you want to run the engine on pump fuel.

Most off the shelf 440 pistons have a 2.065 compression height with 4cc valve reliefs. Using an Indy 75cc chamber and a zero deck block spec with a .040 head gasket yields 11.3:1 static compression. You could leave the block uncut with the pistons in the hole but then you compromise quench....it's a catch 22. The other alternative is to have a set of custom pistons made to compensate for the smaller chamber...a dished piston would be required. This of course adds expense to the build.

The point of all this: Do your math carefully or you'll be disappointed with the results. Your pump gas engine won't run on pump gas. For the record, i have a set of e-heads and they work fine. 560hp with an old school trw piston/ly rod shortblock, solid (non-roller) cam and 10.5:1 compression is nothing to sneez at. I know lots of guys who've run in the 9's with them and one guy in the high 8's so they can and do make power....as long as they're properly set up with the rest of the combo.

Those that slam the e-heads don't know how to make them work....it's as simple as that.

Ron

Author Topic: 440 6pk setup (Read 10450 times)

cudaaah

440 6pk setup

Chryco Psycho

Re: 440 6pk setup

cudaaah

Re: 440 6pk setup

71383bee

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70RTdroptop

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cudaaah

Re: 440 6pk setup

ESGEE

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71383bee

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cudaaah

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Chryco Psycho

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71383bee

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cudaaah

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Chryco Psycho

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Follicly Challenged

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firefighter3931

Re: 440 6pk setup