440 6pk setup

[Follicly Challenged]

Most off the shelf "FORGED" pistons come at the 2.065" Comp. Dist., and at more money.

"IDEAL" quench occuring @.040" is in a "perfect world", which unfortuneately when building a 440 mopar, it Ain't, as firefighter3931 points out.
Affects such as  bore diameter, and head port balance, aftermarket being better and abetting cyl. scavenging are variables for consideration. Don't sweat the .070" quench distance on "THAT" bore diameter, at "THAT rod ratio/dwell time, with "THAT" head, it'll work fine for a 4-500 hp deal.

560 hp on a TRW piston/LY rod shortblock with a flat tappet cam is about right ! Well within the Eddy's reach when properly prepped and applied. For that matter, and perspective, IRON heads have gone real close to that number at that CR as well when properly prepped !
As for EDDY's powering 8 & 9 sec stuff, it's really just power to weight, they aren't the "norm" in those leagues now are they ?  COMP Dragsters run 8/9's W/smallblocks at low power too !

Nothing WRONG with EDDY's, I didn't say that, nor did I slam them if you're refering to me.

I just PREFER an INDY EZ, as it's much easier to make power with, and offer more "UPGRADEABILITY" if ever you go there.

I've personally machined, built, and dyno'd over  793 hp and 724 ft/lbs of torque from a MAX'd out INDY SR head, on a mopar BB stroker, which is the same Intake port as the INDY EZ. The EZ being the "stock exhaust" port location version of that head.

I've never done that with an EDDY, never want to know how either, don't care. Has anybody ever done that with an EDDY ?

I don't have a scanner, but will gladly photo, and email, the dyno sheets for any who request.

I'm waiting

FC out.

[firefighter3931]

Well, there's a guy over at Moparts that just dynoed an e-headed combo at 716hp....not bad for a low budget head huh ?

The ez's make great power now doubt and your point on upgradeability is duly noted. The standard ez's are basicly a max wedge head and the intake ports need to be opened up to get them to flow the big number. The ez-1 is an awesome head (330cfm) but it requires a max-wedge intake manifold.Same deal with the SR's....they work great when opened up. The standard ez's with a stock intake port opening flow 300cfm...good head but not much better than a mildly ported e-head. The bigger ez's have larger intake port volumes which hurt velocity....maybe not an issue on a racecar, but it sure is on a 440ci street car with modest cam specs, mild stall/gearing. I've seen some 440-1 indy headed motors get spanked hard by a smaller e-headed combos. The heads were just plain too big for those engines, not enough compression, cam etc.....

It just depends what you're looking for. I prefer a small efficient port as opposed to a big lazy port....better throttle response and low end power. I'm not saying that the eddy rpm is a better head than the indy ez  overall but it is the right head for many applications. If you're looking for a pump gas 493 to make 600hp this head is more than capable. Throw some compression and cam at it and there's more in them.

I'll have to disagree on the quench issue....it makes a lot of difference on a pump gas combo....you need tight quench if you want to have any hope of running it with full advance on todays junk fuel with 10.5:1 static.  Quench is most definately worth the effort. A local guy built a stroker awhile back with loose quench and it pings like crazy. He's got the timing backed down to 30* to get it to run on ul 93.

I wasn't pointing you out with regards to the junk head comment....this is a general misconception that i've seen on a few boards...just setting the record straight for the non-believers.

Yep an iron head that's been max ported might make close to that power number (560)....but how long will it last before the walls develop cracks and the heads are junk ? I haven't seen any 10.5:1 pump gas iron head combos make anywhere near that number....if there are some out there i'd luv to see them. The reality is that the constant heating/cooling cycles will eventually turn the max ported iron heads into doorstops. There's not enough meat in those heads to remove and make them flow really well.

The 8.90 second car i was referring to isn't a dragster....it's an SST car that runs a lot of spray. The engine is only 446 cubes. Pretty impressive for a 3000lb car though. The 9 second cars are typical bracket motor builds....


I'd be intersted to see the buildup on thar SR stroker combo : displacement, compression, roller cam or not, intake, carb and the head flow numbers and port volumes as well. The dyno results would be interesting to see, especially where the peak tq and hp numbers came in. Sounds like a killer combo. 

Ron

[cudaaah]

You guys are loosing me!!!  I'm not trying to build the fastest car on the track, but would like to notice a difference from my 8:1 compression ( 275?HP ) 440.  I'm willing to pay for build and heads, but would like to be able to enjoy the car w/out too much headache and relay to builder w/out to much more$.   As B4 I'm hearing advice on Indy and edlebrock and am still unsure on stoker vs non.

This is what I've been dealing w/ for the past year.  I guess I just need to choose and decide if it's what I want.  I'm guessing I'll notice a differnce regardless, I dont want to have to go back into the short block when done. 
 
cudaaah

[Follicly Challenged]

Firefighter3931, send me your email in a pm, I'll photo, and send the dyno sheets as stated. I got nothing to hide, I only build for fun now as I'm semi-retired, but still kept enough "junk" from the machine shop days, to go build when I feel like it. CK10, CH100, Blockmaster, Sunnen rod stuff, Serdi, etc.,etc.

Most of it should go to a museum, although it still considered "current" in most circles.

If you want I can send photos of the INDY SR heads used as well, they're back for a freshening. I like the EZ head because I can Tailor it to suit the application as req'd., small or large, and they have "long legs" towards that end, especially when a stroker is considered up to 500 INCH.

 I like a port that matchs the application as well, no point having 340 cfm on a 5500 rpm "stock" wee-83 in a roadroach.

However, I do like the Bowl Volume above the valve the EZ head provides, with whatever size intake opening is used, even a "stock" port window. Provides excellent velocity through the port, then, the "poof" factor to slow down, and "make the valve" at higher demand. I just don't remember that on the last set of EDDY's I saw, and, I didn't feel the R & D or "room to work" for the effort, was merited on those heads at that time.
I bin wrong before, I will be again !
No Flow bench or dyno anymore, but lots of friends and I use theirs when needed.

You're right about the EDDY's, they're fine for many applications. It's just I'm still an INDY WD "dealer", and we all have our preferences I guess. Funny you mention the timing thing with the pissy "upper end distilates" of todays pump fuel, I've had great success at "32" W/ EZ heads @ .060" Quench/ 4.375 bore, on 92 Octane/ 10.8:1.

34 made more power, but a "bit 'O detonation" always does. Went back at 32 and jetted the EGT and was happy !

Truthfully, I just ain't had many opportunities to build less than 500 inch or 600 hp for a long time ! Most/all of my guys are Racers, 2 WALLY's, and 1 IRON MAN last year, all mopars, different guys.
 Not bad for a Retired builder. We're all a product of our environment, mine just ain't so much in the Edelbrock world, but I'm sure they're a fine head when applied properly.

Just my opinion
FC out.

[firefighter3931]

Thanks FC, i'll pm you my e-mail address.

On the fuel issue : the aformentioned 493 was running a Ross shelf 4.15 slug and the static compression was over 11;1 which caused problems. The cam was the mp 590 which should have bled off some cylinder pressure but it didn't seem to help because the quench was so loose. Maybe it's the junk oxegenated crap we've got up here...who knows. One thing i did notice was that mine made it's best power at 35* which was a bit of a surprise. Guess those aluminum head combos don't need as much spark lead as the old iron head engines do.

A friend is also a WD for indy and put together a bracket 446 for one of his customers. He used the 295cc cnc EZ's and it made great power....680hp with a mild flat tappet and 11.5:1 compression. Those are killer heads but the tq peak came in at 5k which takes it out of the "street" category along with the higher static compression. I bet those heads would be great on a street/strip 493.

I see where your building experience has been, primarily in the race world. The Indy head is no doubt better suited to that kind of build....total agreement there. I suppose the point i was trying to make was that the e-head is a descent low budget head that can work well both on the street and strip.

Ron

Ps Cudaah ; sorry for the highjack...we got a little sidetracked here. Tell us how much power you want to make and how much you want to spend. I'm sure we can come up with a suitable recipe that'll put a smile on your face when you drop the hammer.

[71383bee]

Wow this wandered off a bit far...cuda from what i undewrstand i would focus on getting your compression up through piston selection and/or decking the block.  You really need to be around 10:1 with your steel heads or 10.5:1 for aluminum heads.

The argument about which heads is informative and entertaining, but I would venture a guess and state that either are not really necessary for your 440+6 to be a good street car.  If I had to choose it would be the standard 440 EZ heads which IIRC are set up for non max wedge intakes and will take your 6 pack just fine.   Your cam selection should be in the 230-240 range @ 0.050 duration and there are a multitude of cams to choose Crower, Racer Brown, Engle, and even some of the newer custom grinds from Comp are good.   


What advi8ce does your engine builder have?

[Follicly Challenged]

YEP, I apologize too, sorry Cudaah for the "OFF TOPIC" & HIJACK"

I've emailed Firefighter3931 the Dyno sheets, and we can yakity-yak there !

Ditto what 71383bee is saying, he's on track for this build.

FC out.

 

[cudaaah]

Wow!!! Good stuff!!

The builder doesn't have the block yet so I haven't talked w/ him...As mentioned I had previously purchased a purple cam 292 duration which I gave them to use.   I don't know if this is a good choice???   

I've never had an engine built and this info, although I'm picking up slowly, is new to me.  The 440 EZ heads, are you speaking of the Indy EZ heads?

Secondly, Is this cam I have a bad combo w/ the 6pac.

I do understand the need for compression and why alluminum heads will require higher compression. 

Also when I do speak w/ the builder, are there things I should expect to have done, that come w/ a build, and is there more that I could have done other than what may be standard that is helpful.   I'm not trying to build an outrageous engine, just one that will make spending this money worth while.

I know these questions probably have been answered in previous posts,  for some reason I still don't feel confident to making final purchases decisions, or to direct the builder on what I want/need.  Sorry 

As previously mentioned my engine is a dog!!! I want to notice a difference in power, but be streetable.

[firefighter3931]

Ok, we're back on topic. 

For a descent low budget build without all the fancy race parts it's pretty simple. The cast crank is fine for up to 500hp so i'd keep it unless you want to spend the money for a forged unit. The stock LY rods will also be good with a re-conditioning and new arp rodbolts added for extra strength. A set of speedpro 6-pack pistons will get the compression ratio up into the 9.3-9.5 range which is fine for an iron head. I would loose the cam and go with a custom engle grind on a wide lobe center to smooth out the idle, broaden the powerband and make it easier to tune. An engle k56/k58 on a 110 lobe seperation angle would match up well with the 3.55 gears, 4 speed and 6-pack induction.

As for the heads, a simple rebuild with 2.14/1.81 valves and a bowl blend will really wake up the low and mid lift flow. This will pick up the hp/tq significantly and is worthwhile doing. With a set of 13/4 or 17/8 in headers this combo will make an honest 425hp and close to 500ftlbs of torque and be an absolute joy to tune and drive on the street. This is basicly a mid-high 12 second 1/4 mile type build.

If you want to step up to an aluminum head, more attention to detail will be required to dial it all in to achieve the desired compression ratio and quench. Depending on how much power you wanted to make, a solid cam could be in the cards but that increases the costs due to the adjustable valvetrain components that are needed. The choice on aftermarket heads is yours....either will work fine. The basic ez head is your only option (in the "EZ" line) if you go with the indy's...the others all have a max-wedge intake port that will not work with your 6-pack manifold. The indy sr will also work but it has a raised exhaust port that causes header fitment issues and requires a high dollar tti step header to fit.

There are a multitude of options...just depends on the goals and budget.

Ron

[firefighter3931]

I've emailed Firefighter3931 the Dyno sheets, and we can yakity-yak there !

FC out.

 

Thanks a bunch FC....i'm gonna have a good look at those numbers in the am. Appreciate the time you took to forward that info. I'll be saving those into the dyno database for future reference. 

Ron

[cudaaah]

Thanks again...I don't mind so much spending the $, as long as it's spent properly..This time! 

I found myself buying parts based on recomendations only to here other opinions.  I would like to build properly, and end up w/ a strong engine.  I don't want to cut corners. 

I think my impatience costs me...

Thanks for the help
Cudaaah

I will post my discussions w/ my builder B4 making final descisions;  for input...You all seem to know your engines!

[firefighter3931]

Cudaah, here's an aluminum headed 440 build that would work fine for your application. More $$ than the "budget build" i outlined above, but more power as well.

440 ci bored .030
lightweight flattop pistons 10.3:1 compression
aftermarket h-beam rods
balanced assembly
Comp XS282S solid cam
Edelbrock RPM heads, stock/no porting
17/8in headers
Torker single plane intake
850cfm carb

This engine made 545ftlbs of torque and 528hp. Idles nice and smooth at 850rpm and makes enough vacuum to run power brakes. This is an 11 second 1/4 mile build with excellent street manners.

Ron

[71383bee]

I like the build firefighter suggeested for your motor with the stock heads.  The only sugestion I would make is to either zero deck the block or custom make the pistons to achieve 10.5:1 compression or as close as possible and then use thicker head gaskets from cometic IIRC to lower the compression down a point or so.  That way if you want to upgrade to Alluminum heads in the future you will not have to take the motor apart or do any milling work on the heads. 

Decking and head milling has it's pitfalls.  It can throw off the valvetrain geometry and cause excessive wear and the intake will also need to be milled to achieve a good seal.  It also limits the use of those particular heads and intake to that particular motor. 

From what I have learned i think it is better to spend the extra cash on custom pistons and just deck the block to true with little to no milling on the heads so I can use the intake and heads on other motors if needed. 

FC, firefighter and CP, what are your thoughts on this?

BTW, cuda that cam is killing your combo, it is way too big for what you need.  You engine is gasping for air which is why it is a dog.  A cam change alone with a good distributor curve would probably be an improvement IMO. 

[cudaaah]

I'm not on a budget, I just don't want to change out for more parts once it's done.  I'm OK with buying Alluminum heads or not, exchanging the cam I bought, or pay the extra cash for a stroker kit.  I just want to have a good, quick 440 6pac when done.

I think I'm realizing there are as many set up options and opinions on what to use as there are parts to decide on.

I spoke w/ the builder today who has yet to get into the engine, and his attitude was, let me see what you have and I'll build what you want , my way.  A bit of an ego.  I'll see what he has to say when he opens the block and take everyones ideas into consideration.  I  really appreciate everyones input, and think this is a great resource for guys like me.

Cudaaah

[Chryco Psycho]

I agree Bee , I tend not to get to crazy peeling material off the block & heads & rather get a taller piston , you can decompress with a thicker gasket if needed but often the quench will kill the detonation caused but high compression anyway
 I am not a big fan of the Mopar .509 cam , it is ok but it has a lot of duration with minimal lift , better grinds are avaialble