ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES

Author Topic: ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES  (Read 3637 times)

Offline TreeFrog

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ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES
« on: May 08, 2006 - 11:25:54 AM »
 :wavingflag:

OK, OK so if I own a realy Cool car, like say a Challenger with a 340....and gas prices just go thru the roof,,,,, and some guy decided to start selling ethanol—or alcohol  instead of gas...what will I do?

what will I have to do to my engine, what probelms will I face?

they are talking Less than a buck a gallon to use this stuff, compaired to four bucks for gas (as a compairison)..

don't know bout you but I like cheap fuel cost.... :money:
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Offline MEK-Dangerfield

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Re: ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2006 - 02:56:12 PM »
I hadn't heard the buck a gallon thing. It will be less efficient, so you'll have to use more of it. What I don't know is if it will work in older cars.  :dunno: Modern cars have computers that can probably compensate for any changes in fuel type. I really don't know much about this topic, but you can count me in as being scared.  :P

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Offline highspeeddirt

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Re: ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2006 - 05:18:29 PM »
I know alcohol will run a lot cooler so you might have a harder time getting the car to operating temperature, and you will use twice as much.  My brother runs straight alcohol in his IMCA Modified, and uses double what we used to use with turbo blue or VP red fuel.  Don't know about ethanol.  :dunno:


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daves70

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Re: ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2006 - 06:05:41 PM »
SCARED!!!! :grinyes:

Offline Killer_Mopar

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Re: ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2006 - 06:26:49 PM »
Ethanol has a higher octane rating then gas, however it doesnt have the same oomph as gas. You have to use much more ethanol versus gasoline to get the same power. With that said, you might be able to make it work if you get a really big carb to pump much more fuel into the engin. Really isnt worth it in a performance engine. Also note that ethanol prices are low because of the big push for it by the government, from what I hear a lot of the companies are taking a hit on the Ethanol so they can lure people into using it. After the companies have a large consumer size, expect the prices to go up.
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Oldschool

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Re: ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2006 - 06:42:24 PM »
Seems like there were some folks using ethanol back in the day....  All they changed when they went to ethanol was change carb jets.  Might have been some minor timing adjustments also.  I believe that if ethanol becomes popular as a fuel source, you will see Gas to Ethanol conversion charts for us carb using folks.  Example---- if you are using # 72 jets for gas, switch them to # 86 jets for an 85% ethanol mixture.  Shouldn't require much more than that, and maybe the timing adjustments...     :cooldancing:  ...Oldschool

P.S.   if I have to switch jets, it'll be and all day job on the Beast....     :roflsmiley:  :roflsmiley:   :bigsmile:

Offline wart1de

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Re: ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2006 - 07:01:09 PM »
Incase there was some confusion, ethanol fuels arn't pure ethanol. They are generally 85-90% regular gasoline and 10-15% ethanol. You can't really compare it to methanol.

Only time will tell how it performs however if its no good for performance and gasoline as we know it now is out of the picture then another alternative is LPG.  I have a 351C which is completely standard besides a LPG spec camshaft, single plane manifold and 11:1 compression that makes 265HP at the wheels with a Impco 425cfm mixer ( carb ). That is much more than it would have been with gasoline compression and standard cam.

Price of 98 octane fuel here is currently AU$1.35 litre. LPG ( approx 106 octane here ) is currently $0.50 litre. Only downside is the ugly tank that consumes most of the boot/trunk.
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Offline Killer_Mopar

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Re: ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2006 - 07:07:06 PM »
Incase there was some confusion, ethanol fuels arn't pure ethanol. They are generally 85-90% regular gasoline and 10-15% ethanol. You can't really compare it to methanol.

There are really only two mainstream ethanol mixed fuels here in the states. One being the 90% gas/10% ethonal which is the typical kind you find at Sunoco or anywhere where it has ethanol added. The other one is the what I think Treefog was talking about, which is 85% ethonal/15% gas known as E85.
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Offline asm74

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Re: ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2006 - 07:08:26 PM »
Ive been looking into ethanol alternatives myself. Here's what Ive been able to figger out so far:
Any ethanol/gas mix 85/15 or 100 will require 12:1 compression at least, and hotter spark.  You will also probably need all of the parts that such a high compression engine requires: new crank, rods, etc. Bigger jets for sure.
No rubber or plastic in the fuel system.  Some plastics are okay, but why risk it.  The ethanol is highly corrosive to most plastics though, and that would include the floats in yer holley.
Ethanol burns much much much much cleaner that gasoline, you can darn near drink the water that comes out of the tail pipe
Ethanol requires 200 proof alcohol that is almost impossible to still with any at home setup without a molecular seive.  You can only get something like 190 proof with home stills, which aint good enough.  It'll sure get ya drunk though.
Ethanol fuel needs more heat to vaporize in the intake than gasoline.  This, to my understanding is the biggest hurdle, and makes cold starting really difficult.  Some solutions have been a secondaray gas only starting system that switches to ethanol after startup, or a heater setup that heats the fuel up before the carb, and  uses exhaust gasses to maintain the heat.

Ive heard of people converting slant 6's with off the shelf parts to ethanol.  I dont know about Ethanols oomph factor, but I cant really understand how different if would be with such a high compression "performance" engine you need just to run the fuel.  Ethanol is an approved fuel for many racing circuits, and the entire country of Brazil has been running Ethanol for almost a decade (its how they solved their sugar export crisis).  Ive got a good idea of what to do with all the corn we have sitting around....


 



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Offline wart1de

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Re: ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2006 - 07:13:09 PM »
There are really only two mainstream ethanol mixed fuels here in the states. One being the 90% gas/10% ethonal which is the typical kind you find at Sunoco or anywhere where it has ethanol added. The other one is the what I think Treefog was talking about, which is 85% ethonal/15% gas known as E85.

Ah ok. I thought he was talking about the stuff they want to replace regular gas with.
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Offline TreeFrog

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Re: ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2006 - 07:05:39 AM »
This is what I am hearing /seeing as well.  looks like high compression is important, and no plastics...tephlon and a few other will work.  You have two good options...new cars designed for this use or old cars without all the plastic and junk.

then you have to burn straight or blended....blended is what you find at the pumps.  If your engine likes to drink...and we know ours don’t ;) then you may get cheaper prices but you will likely use the savings do to efficiency.

good for Mother earth but by the time you make all the changes I cant see how it worth it.  you can build a still for about $1000 and up...pluss modifications...i think you blew your proffit margin.

but if you are going to build your car from the ground up anyway, I can see where it might be worth tayloring your ride for this...hmmmmm


Ive been looking into ethanol alternatives myself. Here's what Ive been able to figger out so far:
Any ethanol/gas mix 85/15 or 100 will require 12:1 compression at least, and hotter spark.  You will also probably need all of the parts that such a high compression engine requires: new crank, rods, etc. Bigger jets for sure.
No rubber or plastic in the fuel system.  Some plastics are okay, but why risk it.  The ethanol is highly corrosive to most plastics though, and that would include the floats in yer holley.
Ethanol burns much much much much cleaner that gasoline, you can darn near drink the water that comes out of the tail pipe
Ethanol requires 200 proof alcohol that is almost impossible to still with any at home setup without a molecular seive.  You can only get something like 190 proof with home stills, which aint good enough.  It'll sure get ya drunk though.
Ethanol fuel needs more heat to vaporize in the intake than gasoline.  This, to my understanding is the biggest hurdle, and makes cold starting really difficult.  Some solutions have been a secondaray gas only starting system that switches to ethanol after startup, or a heater setup that heats the fuel up before the carb, and  uses exhaust gasses to maintain the heat.

Ive heard of people converting slant 6's with off the shelf parts to ethanol.  I dont know about Ethanols oomph factor, but I cant really understand how different if would be with such a high compression "performance" engine you need just to run the fuel.  Ethanol is an approved fuel for many racing circuits, and the entire country of Brazil has been running Ethanol for almost a decade (its how they solved their sugar export crisis).  Ive got a good idea of what to do with all the corn we have sitting around....


 




65 Satellite     361 Ruby Red Poly
72 Challenger    360 Top Banana     
73 Challenger    340 Triple Black
87 Dodge Ram     318 Blue
88 Dodge Ram     360 Grey (+)
04 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4.7L Pewter Met.

Offline TreeFrog

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Re: ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2006 - 07:08:20 AM »
Now what if......

you used a dual carb setup with a fuel cell and both carbs were set for a specific fuel... one for gas one for eth...then you swith from tank to fuel cell, then you could run both .... maybe i should just go get breakfast.... :P
65 Satellite     361 Ruby Red Poly
72 Challenger    360 Top Banana     
73 Challenger    340 Triple Black
87 Dodge Ram     318 Blue
88 Dodge Ram     360 Grey (+)
04 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4.7L Pewter Met.

ukneil

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Re: ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2006 - 08:10:15 AM »
you guys in the US don`t know how lucky you are with gas prices. In the UK we are nearing £5.00/gallon, that`s $9.00 to you guys.  :swear:

Offline 71fish

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Re: ethanol—or alcohol - GAS PRICES
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2006 - 08:37:11 AM »
UKneil, WOW, that is high.. but what kind of taxes do you pay?? My house is $8k a year.. just in taxes.

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Offline BP23G0B

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« Last Edit: May 09, 2006 - 11:24:44 AM by BP23G0B »
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