Author Topic: Front frame rail  (Read 4572 times)

Offline crcarch

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Front frame rail
« on: June 03, 2006 - 09:58:30 PM »
 :1zhelp: I need some help from the CCC brain-trust concerning frame rails.

I'm rebuilding the front suspension and noticed some rust holes on the frame rail when I dropped the K-member on the drivers side. What I found wasn't pretty.  The section below the upper control arm mount had a good inch of dirt, rust, flakes of metal and even an old bolt.  The frame rails look pristine on the outside for the most part, and the interior rust seems to be confined to this one area and only on the driver's side.

I can't figure out where so much metal debris came from.  Surface flaking over the area effected wouldn't seem to be capable of creating so much. Where there interior gussets within the frame for stiffness?  There are spot welds on either side of the rusted area athat indicate there may have been something inside the frame at one time.  If so, do I need to fab and weld in new ones?  Can this area be repaired adequately with gusset plates welded to the exterior or do I need to order a new frame rail?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I've attached some photos of the initial rust showing, then as I started cutting to explore.  The hole on the exterior side of the rail next to the bump-stop mount was cut out during exploration.
00/===\00 73 Challenger 440-4V/AT  8/--+--\8 09 Ram 1500  0o\==/o0 05 Crossfire Roadster OO(#####SRT)OO 10 Challenger




Offline wart1de

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Re: Front frame rail
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2006 - 07:47:02 PM »
My frames rusted in the same spot as yours and I just finished installing frame caps.

I posted some info here about the frame cap solution:

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=21854.0

 :cheers:
1973 Plymouth 'Cuda
1980 Ford Falcon XD ESP
2012 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon

Offline crcarch

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Re: Front frame rail
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2006 - 08:17:16 PM »
Thanks.  I'll use the photos as a guide.  I ended up having to order the full rail even though the rust was only at the control arm mount.  Seems the front rail is about 4" too short to cover the rusted area.  According to the salesman at ABS, this is common.  I guess they like all the extra money because needing that extra 4" doubles the price. :eek4:
00/===\00 73 Challenger 440-4V/AT  8/--+--\8 09 Ram 1500  0o\==/o0 05 Crossfire Roadster OO(#####SRT)OO 10 Challenger

Offline wart1de

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Re: Front frame rail
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2006 - 08:31:17 PM »
I went the full rail on both sides just to keep it looking uniform.
1973 Plymouth 'Cuda
1980 Ford Falcon XD ESP
2012 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon

Offline crcarch

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Re: Front frame rail
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2006 - 05:51:28 AM »
It's been a while, but I'm back at it. :working: Here's a few questions from a definite novice in the field of rust repair.

 :1zhelp: It seems the interior of the cap/exterior of existing frame rail should be treated/painted prior to reassembly to prevent rusting out from within as the original did.  Anybody do this and if so, with what?

 :dunno: Did you  :working:then remove the coating where it was to be welded?

 :clueless: Since the frame cap is solid the only welding point provided is along the top edge.  Should it be drilled for spot-welds along the sides to provide physical connection to the frame there as well?  If so, where is the best place to locate the spot-welds for strength?

Thanks, in advance.
00/===\00 73 Challenger 440-4V/AT  8/--+--\8 09 Ram 1500  0o\==/o0 05 Crossfire Roadster OO(#####SRT)OO 10 Challenger

Offline Desmo

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Re: Front frame rail
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2006 - 03:32:21 PM »
My '70 R/T also rusted out in the same spot. Right thru on both sides too! I purchased used frame rails off flea bay, and am presently in the middle of removing the offending rail, along with the torsion bar mount, rear frame rails.... it goes on.

Anyway, I did phone a real nice guy at rust technicians when first deciding what way to go. Can't remember his name, but he started the company, and his personal Charger is what lead him down this road. When I asked the same thing, he pointed out that these cars have been left outside to rot up 'till we decide to rebuild them, and once the frame caps are installed, the car tends to lead a pampered life.

Living in a garage, and being taken care of, means you should expect rust to reoccur at a much slower rate than before, and the car is 30 plus years old now... In fact his Charger has no new rust and he did it over 8 years ago, as I remember. So armed with that info, I simply decided quality primer sprayed into the open top of the rear rails, and torsion bar mount (leave the area that will be welded clean to ensure a quality weld) after sand blasting them clean, would be much better than what had been used before (zippo) and if it lasts only 40 years...oh well!

The front rail is harder to get inside of, and my bodyman tells me that they spray wax with a wand into the holes of open frame rails to stop the oxidization process when they can't actually see the area to be treated. I can get into the rails as the area under the foot wells are open, and only box in when they reah the engine compartment. Only usefull info if the rail is completely removed from the car, or if you replace the floor pans and blast then, before welding in new ones. Thus I will do the same with the front rails.  You can get in thru the new access hole you have created, so a quality primer following a good sand blast should give you tons more protection than most concours restorations have... :2cents:

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: Front frame rail
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2006 - 06:37:28 PM »
Ahh, the old driver's side rot.  Mainly due to years of battery acid running into the front hole in your picture number 2.  That's an area we always check when looking at a car to buy.  Can you buy some plate steel and patch that?  As long as every thing is still in alignment, you can cut a nice piece of thicker steel and weld in a side, then grind down the bottom a little then weld in a bottom section.   Might be alot easier than changing the whole rail, but it's up to you.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline js23nob

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Re: Front frame rail
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2006 - 04:19:50 AM »
Hi Guys,

I am over in Aus and were not able to buy frame caps.
The only problem with caps is, now that you cut up the rail there is no gusets
inside the rail and you just weld the caps on.
I just make the rail myself put in double the amount of gusets, and i use thicker
steel 2.2 mm with 2.5 wall gusets :2cents:
I did all this on a 69 bara factory right hand drive export.
The big challenge is my 70 chally
Mopar or no car

Offline Desmo

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Re: Front frame rail
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2006 - 10:49:49 PM »
Yikes! NICE JOB!
 :thumbsup:

Offline moper

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Re: Front frame rail
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2006 - 01:20:50 PM »
I didnt think the rust was that bad at first, but you can see where there's pin holes all over the rail. I dont hink the caps are "the best way" to handle things. But, they will do the job wihtout having to replace the whole rail, which extends all the way back to the torsion bar crossmember. Also, be very careful that teh car is leveled before hand, and stays level. Otherwise, you could be in for a nasty time aligning things like fenders and grille, not to mention K frame, and wheel alignments.

Offline crcarch

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Re: Front frame rail
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2006 - 03:53:42 PM »
Update -

I've finally gotten the new frame rail cap installed.  I had to fab some new gusset plates inside the existing rail and add some plate steel on the engine side because the cap didn't go all the way up and left a gap. I treated the interior with rust converter, then zinc coated everything I could inside the original rail and used rust encapsulator on the outside of the rail and inside the cap, leaving the areas to be welded untreated.

Welded it all in this Sunday. It was quite an accomplishment for me since it was my first serious welding job.  While it's not quite up to Foose standards for aesthetics, it should clean up decently and be plenty strong.

Now, let's hope I got all the rust.
00/===\00 73 Challenger 440-4V/AT  8/--+--\8 09 Ram 1500  0o\==/o0 05 Crossfire Roadster OO(#####SRT)OO 10 Challenger

Offline moparclown

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Re: Front frame rail
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2006 - 04:28:31 AM »
I am impressed by the work you guys are doing.And very glad to see I am not the only nut case willing to save a car that most wouldn't fix.Keep the pictures comming.I love to see the blood sweat and tears of this hobby because that the true love of the whole thing.-----the clown

Offline crcarch

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Re: Front frame rail
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2006 - 06:31:13 AM »
FYI -
The red you see in the pics is Eastwood's Rust Encapsulator. Articles I've found said it was better than Por-15, which I used in the interior.  Since it's an Eastwood product and not affected by UV, I thought I'd give it a try on my chassis along ith their Chassis Black top-coating.  My experience turned out to be anything but good.

I actually read the instructions and prepped the surface as directed. The stuff starts to dry instantly and even when thinned is difficult to work with.  It never gets hard (like Por-15) and it shows brush marks BIG-TIME!  :pullinghair: The chassis black coating is supposed to be chip resistant but I found that it is easily chipped and marred when it is over the encapsulator coating. (I've taken a hammer to Por-15 and it hasn't left a mark!) So now I've got a lumpy finish that's easily scratched. Not the scenerio I want under my car. I tried the chassis black over something that I had simply primed with self-etching primer and had much better results. Now I'm grinding it back off and redo'ing with Por-15 and their Chassis Black top-coating.

What a fun weekend!  :crying: I just love doing crap-work twice!

LESSON LEARNED - If you know something works, stick with it.

00/===\00 73 Challenger 440-4V/AT  8/--+--\8 09 Ram 1500  0o\==/o0 05 Crossfire Roadster OO(#####SRT)OO 10 Challenger

Offline HemiDog

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Re: Front frame rail
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2006 - 08:07:19 AM »
Looks like some great work!  :2thumbs:

Offline Street_Challenged73

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Re: Front frame rail
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2006 - 01:42:25 PM »
Wow, that turned out looking very nice, Crcarch!!! :2thumbs:  And the rest of you who posted photos have done a very nice job with your repairs, too. :cheers:
1973 Dodge Challenger......................The ongoing project. (00/----\00)
1991 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo....The sunny day cruiser (RTBoost)
1990 Toyota Celica GT Liftback...........The new daily & winter driver.
All-American Muscle: 'Cudas and Challengers...Still the Elite and always will be.

                                                                                             
                 
Street_Challenged73 from Wisconsin