Help me Diagnose Problem...

[71383bee]

I decided to change out my ED Performer intake to a Holley Street Dominator i got lying around.  I did not remove the valley pan gasket so I used liberal amounts of Permatex High Tack gasket Sealant on the intake side.  While I was at it I also changed the Left side header gasket which had a nasty leak. 

The intake was a real bear to get on because I suspect that when the motor was built the deck was cleaned up a bit which lowered the intake alignment.  I ovaled the intake holes abit and it went on fine.   

Finally after a month of ocassional night and weekend wrenching I am ready to fire it up. 

She fires and initially i got it to run only by putting my foot into it and keeping it around 2300 RPM for quite awhile.  At that RPM it was difficult to notice any misses, but when i eased out it would just plain out die until it reached around 160 temp. Now a few nights ago I was initially able to get it to hold an idle around 1000 RPM and it sounded nice.  I started tuning the carb (Mighty Demon 650) and it liked it rich Basically i was about 3-4 turns out on the P and S and it settled into a decent lope that wasn't stinging my eyes.  I put the car in gear and it sounds good around 900 RPM.  After letting her run a bit more and goosing the throttle a bit, and then all of the sudden she drops noticeablely in idle and starts to stall.  She finally dies and I couldn't get her to hold an idle upon refiring. 

fast forward to Saturday...I checked the wires and found 2 with some burn marks on them and change them out.  Fire it up and it is the same as where I left it.  She won't hold an idle at all. 

Now on a side note on the left bank where I changed the header after running the car is naturally very hot and from that side i can hear almost a gurgling.  I tsounds like some thing is boiling and occasionally I here a hiss as a drop of something drips onto a header tube, but it happens so fast i can't see it.

Now today...Sunday... I kind of thought that it was a vacum leak and the missing link seemed to me to be the intake swap so i decided to pull the intake...

When i pulled the carb I saw oil in the front runners which is bad sign that oil was being sucked from the head/valley interface.

Sure enough i pulled the intake and the front runners for the 1-4 cylinders showed signs of oil suction. 

So I ventured further and decided to pull the entire pan.  What i found did not please me.  It turns out sealer around the pan oozed in and formed little drops of sealent that were all over the valley.   :mad:  I can't believe this builder!
Here's an over all pic...


i took pictures of the lifter/cam interface in the four windows...are these wear patterns normal?

7-8
 

5-6
 

3-4
 

Sorry no 1-2, but you get the picture.  As of now I want to clean out the valley as best i can and get one of those aluminum 2 piece valley covers from either Indy or Hughes.  OR is there more to my story?  Help me out guys...

Sorry for the long post.

[MEK-Dangerfield]

I'm not sure what the problem is, but I see nothing wrong in your pics other than the slight garbage in there(I guess that was your point). Those valley pan gaskets are only about $20, and you should be able to get one locally. Trying to use one twice might have done you in. If the carb is adjusted right, then I can only assume some type of vacuum leak causes the idle to die. Also, if the new intake is taller or shorter than the old, you might have to play with the tension on the throttle return springs. I've Been doing that lately thanks to Chryco.     

  Mike

[67Vette427]

Back in the 70's when I raced the 71 cuda and the 70 Challenger I use to swap six pack set up's and four barrel set ups all the time between runs. Never had much of a problem with the valley pan leaky. Stilled pulled good ET's. Now back to your problem.

There is suppose to be oil in that valley but not in your intake runners.

One area that could have caused this problem is that when you switched manifolds, especially aluminum manifolds that haven't been on that specific motor, the manifold doesn't fit the engine properly and causes your engine vacuum to suck up some oil or air depending on what side isn't sealing. If I put a motor together I try to use the original manifold that was fitted originally. Hopefully, you re-torqued the new manifold when it was warm to help it fit before you took it off.

I would put a new valley pan gasket and I believe there are additional gaskets you can buy to help with your problem. If you run into the same problem again make sure to torque the manifold while its warm and see if that helps. If not then you can pull the manifold again but this time check the gasket to see where it isn't sealing. It could be that the motor was decked at one point or the heads shaved, causing you the problem.

[71383bee]

Thanks for the input...

Like I mentioned the intake was kind of a bear to get on so i suspect i need to mill down the surface a bit. 

What is the formula for milling the intake?  I was told that the deck was just "cleaned up" by the builder so I have no idea how much to remove.  I do know that the motor is fairly low in compression so I do not think they took much off. 

[67Vette427]

It depends on how much was cleaned up. The same would be amount would be done to the intake.

[Chryco Psycho]

I would use the 1214 intake gasket & block the heat crossover , you definatly had a vacuum leak under the intake , I like to use the paper gasket under the pan to prevent a leak under the pan but htis makes getting the intake in place even harder to do , I start 2 bolts on 1 side & pry the intake down in the relief port around the heat crossover . If you are going to get the intake milled down I would start conservative & cut .015-.020 max , iti si normal for an intake to go on tight , recheck the intake to be sure it remains tight a # of times after installing it too 

[71383bee]

Thanks Chryco I appreciate your input.

I think I will just take it to a local machine shop and get it milled 0.015 like you sugested.  I should have known when i was trying to put it on.  She would not go easily so like an idiot i ovalled the holes with a drill.  Went on real nice after that!  To bad I probably made the problem worse. 

Consequently I don't think the motor sealed well to begin with.  At most i only got about 14in of Hg at idle and it was never steady.  I hope milling will solve this...

2 questions:

Do you use both paper gaskets? 

Do you use any sealant?

[Chryco Psycho]

the gasket comes with 4 paper gaskets , I use 2 only under the pan not above it & yes I use a Thin layer of silicone

[moper]

Dont be too quick to bash a biulder. He did it right, you're changing things. So doing it right is now up to you. (I figured that line was more out of frustration anyway..lol) As far as milling on big blocks...It's .012 off the intake (or intake flange of the head) for every .010 off the deck surface. That's true for the block and the heads, if either or both were milled for the rebuild. That doesnt help when you have no measurement to go by, but its something anyway. As far as the intake you have...I dont think .015 will be enough. Assuming (bad word, I know) your rebuilder did std :cleanup cuts" on the heads and decks, you would have roughly .010 per surface cut. So, .020" per head. The formula says .012 for every .010, so you'd be looking at milling .024" per side minimum. If the bolt's holes are not centered in the hole of the intake before you torque it, it's not right. Under no circumstances save maybe being stuck on the side of the road should you have to pry it into place. The problem isnt the bolts going in. It's the  ports not aligning, and the gasket not sealing, as you have found. There's all kinds of opinions on what gasket setup to use. I've never needed to use paper ones, but others I know have, and swear by them. I use Ultra Grey RTV around the ports, in a very thin skim layer. VERY THIN. BTW, the ones included in the FelPro set are thicker..You can get the thinner ones that MP used to sell on Ebay. You'll have to mill a new intake on new heads to use the paper ones felpro gives you because they are so thick. The Ebag ones are reproductions of the warranty ones Chrysler introduced in the ealry 70s after the aluminum 6bbl cars had sealing problems. They are about 1/2 as thick as the Fel Pro ones, and fit much easier. The SD is a great single plane intake for a street car.

[ShelbyDogg]

I've had lots of trouble putting on Intakes with those paper gaskets too, but always got them on sooner or later. Like Chryco, I've never been able to use a paper gasket on each side of the valley pan but have been able to use one on the inside.  Did you tighten the bolts down evenly, side to side as suggested in the torque sequence?  If you don't go side to side, you bound up the manifold and wedged it in there so that it didn't pull down evenly.  Like Chryco, I get one side started loosely, the take a big open-ended wrench and shove one lip under roof of the heat crossover hole. That lets me push the intake down enough to try and get the other side started.  I have never had to get a manifold milled yet.  A friend of mine was trying to get one milled and it kept coming back uneven and not square. I'm not risking any of my intakes.  Try your intake with another new valley pan and torque the bolts from side to side. The ones sucking oil were not seated at all. I NEVER use silicone on the valley pan except where it hit the block front and rear. Gasoline vapors attack silicone and break it down. It is never to be used around intake runners or carb gaskets.

The dripping on the header is coolant. You didn't use any silicone sealant on your header bolts.

The cam pictures that you sent up look bad. Were those lifters used before?  The lobe should show wear on the edge, showing you that the lifter is rotating in it's bore. From what I see, the center of you lobe is contacting the center of you lifters.  Pull 2 out, put the bottom of the one being checked against the side of the second one, You should see it raised in the center like the shape of your head. (unless you were dropped as a child).  If you don't see a raised center, your lifters should be replaced.

[71383bee]

moper,  Sorry about that i said it ourt of rustration, but I have been battling this motor since I got it in about 3-4 years ago and it never ran good IMO.  Not to mention that i recieved very little in documentation and eneded up with a low comp motor that is a bear to tune i think I can gripe a little bit.  In all honestly though alot of the blame can be placed on myself and my lack of understanding of engines.  Since then i have learned so much that there is no way i would have built this thing the way it ended up, but hindsight is 20/20 right.

So milling is additive based on each head?  Milling both sides 0.010 means i need to mill the intake surface nearly 2x that?  I think I need a diagram or something...why 2x?  So a "clean up" is typically around 0.010 on the deck....

shelby,

Now you got me worried...the lifters are supposedly new.  I had a bad feeling when I looked at them.  They look worn on the lobe, but not on the base circle.  Does this mean they are not spinning in the lifter bores.  Can this mean too much spring or pushrod?  I guess I am confused because a couple of guys on moparts told me that it is normal wear. 

The header bolts I used Permatex High tack...I guess I need to try something else. 

[Chryco Psycho]

I agree on the cam pattern the track is in the center not on the side where it should be to rotate the lifters , pull a lifter & check it

[moper]

71, I've kept up with your posts elsewhere, I know it's been a "trip" for you. I see a lot of issues caused by lack of information, rather than outright deceit blamed on machinists. In terms of the "skimming" I was referrring to. If you correctly rebuild and engine, that means the head surface is trued up and square(a typical .010" cut) and the block's deck surfaces are decked (hopefully square decked..they are not the same thing) typically the same amount. So, you will need to use the formula on the correct total. The net effect of milling .010 on the head, and .010 on the block, is the manifold is .024 (per side) too large now. The head gasket used also can help "fis" this. If you run a FelPro or similar composite gasket instead of the factory steel shim style, you effective raised the head up that same .020, because the gasket is thicker. So in many cases, the intake does not have to be cut..which is why you read a lot of "Miine fit fine" and "Mine fit like poo" deals. Every engine is it's own animal. I se no issue with the pattern. I can tell you that if they werent turning, you would have already destroyed whichever ones werent rotating. It happens in minutes of running, almost seconds when the oil film and surfaces break down. And once it starts, it's not getting any better without replacement of both parts.  As far  as RTV, It gets exposed to fuel vapors in every engine thru normal engine dynamics. Some guys wont use it. It cant seal or survive being immerssed in fuel, but it lives just fine sealing the external air out of the intake passages. The ribs in the steel gasket seals the fuel and air mix on the inside. The RTV only plugs the tiny imperfections and seals the outside air out. It works for me I definately torqeu them just the way the factory does. Pulling one side in is inviting problems later. Sometimes "a bigger hammer" isnt what's needed to get it to go.

[71383bee]

moper,

I have to apologize if you feel that i have been too hard on machinists.  One thing I have certainly learned is that it pays to know what you want and what you are looking for.  5 years ago I knew very little about engines and mopars in general when i had that engine built and i have since learned TONS of info from guys such as yourself.  Believe me I really appreciate the advice I am given buy folks such as yourself and i only wish i had the option of sending the engine to someone like you when i had the oportunity.  Unfortunately that was not the case.  However, i think that even you will agree that it is kind of shady when after asking repeatedly for receipts, cam card, and specific info like "how far did you mill the heads?" and getting nothing in return is kind of a raw deal. 

Now I admit that if i had asked the right questions or made the correct request i would end up a happier man.  This is why i am quite vocal when folks ask questions on these boards in regards to similar circumstances that i found myself in.  My advice has always been...listen to the advice given on these boards and strive to understand what you are trying to do.  Don't be like me and end up with a fantastic looking car that can barely make it down the block. 

Now in regards to the current problem.  I now understand why I should mill 0.024 because you are figuring 0.010 from BOTH the head and the intake.

Bassically, what i would like is everybody's best guess.  Mill X.XXX from the intake and use a new intake gasket with X gaskets and i recommend X sealer from X.   

As for the cam/lifters I will pull a vc and rocker set this week and check a few lifters and post pics.  Is there anything i should watch for in uninstalling/reinstalling the rockers or pushrods? 

Again sorry for the long post and I appreciate all of the advice given...

   

[Chryco Psycho]

I am not guessing , I would try to pry the intake down without machining it , it will be tough it always is