340 Stroker Advice.

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Offline 1BADFISH™

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340 Stroker Advice.
« on: July 27, 2006 - 10:51:18 PM »
I was just looking at stroker kits for a 340 and was wondering if anyone had an kits in particular they reccomend or any advice when looking at kits. I found a couple that are reasonably priced and was looking for some opinions.

Is there an major machining to build a stroker 340 or is it just a matter of reworking the windage tray.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Eagle-408-Forged-Steel-Mopar-Stroker-Kit-340-460-Crank_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33616QQihZ018QQitemZ280010243877QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SB-MOPAR-340-416-STROKER-EAGLE-CRANK-RODS-ROSS-PISTONS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33616QQihZ013QQitemZ230009261814QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Just wondering what I should look at and what makes one better then the next.

Thanks.

Dave
Charlottetown, PE
2014 GMC Sierra Crew Cab White Diamond edition.
1970 Dodge Challenger 340-6 4spd.
*Member Since* Oct 11, 2005




Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 340 Stroker Advice.
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2006 - 01:27:36 AM »
the second kit uses a file fit ring set & Ross pistons that have to be milled to get streetable compression for extra cost , the first kit uses a production fit ring & a JE piston with 9.7:1 compression which is about perfect
 if the crank is well made it will fit th eblock , if not some clearancing may be nessisary the rod & piston should fit with normal machining although often the bottom of the bore will need to be notched for rod clearance
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006 - 01:30:47 AM by Chryco Psycho »

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Offline tactransman

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Re: 340 Stroker Advice.
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2006 - 06:40:13 AM »
Terry-tactransman 
Torqueflite/Automatic Transmission Specialist
Union, Mo.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day,teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime.

Offline moper

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Re: 340 Stroker Advice.
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2006 - 07:44:27 AM »
The first listing, the crank is not an Eagle catalog part number. I have heard of factory defects (returns and such) that are repaired, then sold quietly from Eagle. Ohio Crank also does this. There's nothing wrong with it, but that "030" at the end tells me it might be already ground undersize. I'd avoid it.
The second listing Is a good Eagle crank, and they are right with Ross not listing falt tops. But...Diamond does. Ross has dished for street, or domes for high compression. You can buy Diamonds for about the same as Ross plus the modification, and they are a better piston IMO.
There is more to them than just bolting them together. With a small block, head choice is very important. A modern chamber, Like Edelbrock's Magnum style, works very well with Ross's dished version for a pump gas engine. Flat tops can also be used for this, but I'd run LA style RPMs with them for ease of install. The block's bores have to be notched to clear the rods(rod bolt nuts, to be exact), the correct iwndage tray needs to be used (for the 4" arm...the Milodon is the best one for this), and main studs should be used. ARP lists a 12pt set..get them. One stud needs to be modified to clear the oil pump, but the smaller nut will clear everything better.
With any kit not containing a Callies crank, I would make a couple assumptions. First, every part should be inspected, using a micrometer. I've found several of various brands that are machined barely adequately. Crank journals that are "in spec", but on the smaller side. Main journals with taper exceeding .0005". Rod journals with the oil hole chamfer that runs almost all the way accross the bearing surfaces. Snouts that are too small to fit the press fit the balancer needs..etc. They generally need nothing, but, if you dont look, you may have issues. In worst case, you can either pay to send it back and get another one to check over, or you can pay to have it machined correctly, albeit to a smaller (.010) journal size.  The rods suffer from pin bushings not finish honed to proper size, overall length variences, and the most common, the big ends not beign round after cycling the bolts a few times. The bushing and length issues are not a big deal(length being a difference of .004" between 8 rods), but the big ends can be messy. Once cycled, you must torque them to correct spec for the bolt(or measure stretch) and then check for roundness. If they are way out, replace them. Trying to correct and redo them is hard, because the caps are doweled. Minor honing can be done easy to fix them. Most times, that's all you need to do, and adds about $100 to the machining bill. I'm not really trusting, so I have all my stuff balanced at my shop. I've seen what some places call "balanced", and it's not what my shop beleives...lol. think of using a bubble balancer for a wheel and tire, vs a high speed spin balancer. Some machine shops use the same equipment they have had for 40 years. The results usually show it, if it's checked on a computerized balancer fixture.
The 408/416 is a killer package in any form, you will be happy with it, just take the time (and expense) of doing it right once.

Offline 1BADFISH™

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Re: 340 Stroker Advice.
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2006 - 07:56:50 AM »
the second kit uses a file fit ring set & Ross pistons that have to be milled to get streetable compression for extra cost , the first kit uses a production fit ring & a JE piston with 9.7:1 compression which is about perfect
 if the crank is well made it will fit th eblock , if not some clearancing may be nessisary the rod & piston should fit with normal machining although often the bottom of the bore will need to be notched for rod clearance

Thanks Neil, are those worked 308 heads a 70cc chamber?

Moper, lots of great info, i'll keep all in mind if I go ahead and purchase a kit.

Much Appreciated.
Dave

Dave
Charlottetown, PE
2014 GMC Sierra Crew Cab White Diamond edition.
1970 Dodge Challenger 340-6 4spd.
*Member Since* Oct 11, 2005

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 340 Stroker Advice.
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2006 - 10:20:26 AM »
the 308 is a 68 cc chamber so te real cc wioth head gasket will be close to 70   

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Offline moper

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Re: 340 Stroker Advice.
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2006 - 01:47:29 PM »
The biggest deal is, keep your eyes open, and have everything mic'd. If you do it yourself, make sure the parts are room temp, and so is your micrometer. As long as you look and make sure, it really doesnt matter whose parts you get. They will be "right" when it's assembled.   I was totally amazed by the power of these little beasties. They make even mildy built 440s feel sluggish...lol. :cooldancing: :burnout:

Offline 1BADFISH™

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Re: 340 Stroker Advice.
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2006 - 02:00:09 PM »
Moper, the kit is brand new. Here is the response:

The kit is a new kit and is 100% first run parts. The -030 specifies an overbore on the pistons, not a turned crank or other blem.
 
Eagle's latest catalogs list the kits as a 20102 and when you order a kit you need to specify an overbore, which adds the 030 suffix.

Thing is, this is his last kit at this price and it's for a 0.030" overbore 340....which is ok if I find a block that has no or <0.030 bore so I can make it work.

Thanks again.
Dave

Dave
Charlottetown, PE
2014 GMC Sierra Crew Cab White Diamond edition.
1970 Dodge Challenger 340-6 4spd.
*Member Since* Oct 11, 2005

Offline matt63

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Re: 340 Stroker Advice.
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2006 - 07:59:47 PM »
I just got my 408 stroker Cuda on the road.  I'm very happy with it so far.  It's happy to cruise around like a mild big block  but gets nasty pretty quick.  It's alot lighter than a big block too.  While my experiences might be unusual I would consider the fact that these stroker kits can be far from "bolt in" as my engine machine shop knows well.  I got the Eagle steel 4" stroker crank with the Eagle I beam rods and Probe dished pistons and file fit rings.  A zero decked block gave me 10.5:1 compression with a 0.040" quench.  A mild 228 duration Hughes hydraulic roller cam, 1.6 rockers and Edelbrock Magnum heads were used for the top end.

The cheaper Eagle I beam rods do not require that the block be notched although this is not a big deal.  Alot of machining was required to get the engine assembled properly.  The large end of the rods were out of round badly and had to be resized (yes, new Eagle rods).  I watched the machinist torque them to spec with moly lube and test them in the rod machine. The small ends were honed for the pins too.  The worst thing is that the crank throws hit the piston pin bosses so allof the pistons had to be milled.  Once I assembled the short block I found that the pistons also protruded various distances from the deck so they had to be individually milled. All in all it cost about $1000 extra as some rebalancing was required.  If I had to do it again I would recondition stock rods on a lower hp unit or go for better rods and use the Diamond or JE pistons.  A Milodon pan and windage tray fit nicely.  Hope this helps.
Matt in Edmonton

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'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD

Offline 1BADFISH™

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Re: 340 Stroker Advice.
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2006 - 08:12:16 PM »
I just got my 408 stroker Cuda on the road.  I'm very happy with it so far.  It's happy to cruise around like a mild big block  but gets nasty pretty quick.  It's alot lighter than a big block too.  While my experiences might be unusual I would consider the fact that these stroker kits can be far from "bolt in" as my engine machine shop knows well.  I got the Eagle steel 4" stroker crank with the Eagle I beam rods and Probe dished pistons and file fit rings.  A zero decked block gave me 10.5:1 compression with a 0.040" quench.  A mild 228 duration Hughes hydraulic roller cam, 1.6 rockers and Edelbrock Magnum heads were used for the top end.

The cheaper Eagle I beam rods do not require that the block be notched although this is not a big deal.  Alot of machining was required to get the engine assembled properly.  The large end of the rods were out of round badly and had to be resized (yes, new Eagle rods).  I watched the machinist torque them to spec with moly lube and test them in the rod machine. The small ends were honed for the pins too.  The worst thing is that the crank throws hit the piston pin bosses so allof the pistons had to be milled.  Once I assembled the short block I found that the pistons also protruded various distances from the deck so they had to be individually milled. All in all it cost about $1000 extra as some rebalancing was required.  If I had to do it again I would recondition stock rods on a lower hp unit or go for better rods and use the Diamond or JE pistons.  A Milodon pan and windage tray fit nicely.  Hope this helps.

Matt, Thanks a lot for the input. I'm still deciding what direction I want to go with an engine build. I want a stroker but am scared of these problems. It will be a motor built in coordination with chryco so i'm sure he'll take your input into consideration when we decide what i'm gonna do.

Do you have a link to the exact kit you used and do you have any dyno numbers now that its running?

Dave
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006 - 08:13:58 PM by 1BADFISH »

Dave
Charlottetown, PE
2014 GMC Sierra Crew Cab White Diamond edition.
1970 Dodge Challenger 340-6 4spd.
*Member Since* Oct 11, 2005

Offline matt63

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Re: 340 Stroker Advice.
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2006 - 09:54:36 PM »
I haven't got it dyno tested.  Hughes Engines says 460 hp+ with this cam and mild work on the Edelbrock heads (gasket matching, clean-up and back cut valves to get 10 cfm extra)  They say the bottleneck is the heads otherwise I would of gone up to the next cam.  I've got 12 inches of manifold vacuum at idle which seems to be ok with the power brakes.  I bought the stroker parts from Mopac.  Eagle and Probe have websites with the specs. I've got all of the part numbers somewhere.
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD

Offline moper

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Re: 340 Stroker Advice.
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2006 - 05:34:42 AM »
Matt63, that estimate sounds about right. I havent even used Probe's, so I cant comment on quality. Your experience with Eagles is what I was talking about..Cycling the rods with the right lube, and it all gets funky. That 228° is a kitten cam for that engine. Must have mad torque. As with any engine, you have to "do the homework to get the best grade". Just sticking it in a block is asking for doing it 2-3 times to get it decent. Most of the reason these problems were corrected is, they were identified during assembly.  :cheers:

Offline matt63

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Re: 340 Stroker Advice.
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2006 - 06:15:02 PM »
Matt63, that estimate sounds about right. I havent even used Probe's, so I cant comment on quality. Your experience with Eagles is what I was talking about..Cycling the rods with the right lube, and it all gets funky. That 228° is a kitten cam for that engine. Must have mad torque. As with any engine, you have to "do the homework to get the best grade". Just sticking it in a block is asking for doing it 2-3 times to get it decent. Most of the reason these problems were corrected is, they were identified during assembly.  :cheers:
The manufacturers all shrug their shoulders and blame the problem on the other guy.  One even said "that's how it goes".  There is no warranty.  That I why I recommend that all of the parts get checked out and budget for some "finish machining".  So far I'm pretty happy with the Hughes 228 cam.  Yes, lots of torque!  Some of the magazines were slapping in cams 4 sizes larger then this in their engine build articles.  I questioned the guy at Hughes on the selection and he said "hey this isn't Walmart" or something like that.
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD

Offline Follicly Challenged

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Re: 340 Stroker Advice.
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2006 - 06:31:47 AM »
I've built a few of these little stroker engines now, running brackets in Calgary & Edmonton. They work very well.

That said, there are a few "tricks" to making them live well with the stock blocks and 2 bolt mains.

Forget the cast crank versions, too expensive for balancing.
Get the Bobweight Calc. as low as possible.
Use a Bohmeloid bolt, instead of a stud, in the #5 cap on drivers side. Align hone the main saddles with this in place.
Drill main feeds larger.
Use a lifter gallery cross-over.
USE a Torque-plate ! If the shop doesn't have one, - WALK AWAY !

See the "proven engine combos" on this board, go to "www.dynoplus.com", go to dyno, scroll to "Sam Borhot 408".
In excess of 500 hp is easily attainable on pump fuel.

You'll be VERY happy with your little Stroker !

Offline 1BADFISH™

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Re: 340 Stroker Advice.
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2006 - 09:00:13 AM »
I've built a few of these little stroker engines now, running brackets in Calgary & Edmonton. They work very well.

That said, there are a few "tricks" to making them live well with the stock blocks and 2 bolt mains.

Forget the cast crank versions, too expensive for balancing.
Get the Bobweight Calc. as low as possible.
Use a Bohmeloid bolt, instead of a stud, in the #5 cap on drivers side. Align hone the main saddles with this in place.
Drill main feeds larger.
Use a lifter gallery cross-over.
USE a Torque-plate ! If the shop doesn't have one, - WALK AWAY !

See the "proven engine combos" on this board, go to "www.dynoplus.com", go to dyno, scroll to "Sam Borhot 408".
In excess of 500 hp is easily attainable on pump fuel.

You'll be VERY happy with your little Stroker !

Great advice, thanks!

Dave
Charlottetown, PE
2014 GMC Sierra Crew Cab White Diamond edition.
1970 Dodge Challenger 340-6 4spd.
*Member Since* Oct 11, 2005