Author Topic: Need Tuning Help  (Read 1919 times)

Offline matt63

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1855
Need Tuning Help
« on: August 16, 2006 - 09:09:37 PM »
I've never been very good at tuning (or spent much time at it) and am a little lost.  Some advice on where to go from here would be appreciated.  Here is the lowdown:
The engine is a new 408 with about 200 miles on it.  It has a mild hyd roller cam (228 duration at 050), Edelbrock aluminum heads and Performer rpm intake, 10.5:1 dished pistons, Holley HP Street 750 vacuum secondaries carb.  I now have the lightest spring in the carb, stock jets, NGK BKR7ES plugs, 15 degree initial and 35 total timing  w/no vacuum advance hooked up.  The engine runs fine with about 12" of vacuum at idle and runs at 195F.  It seems to be pretty responsive down low especially.  The car is a 4 speed.

I put the new NGK plugs in after about 100 miles.  They are now sooty (black and dry) around the bottom of the plug and the electrode seems  to have no deposits/looks bare perhaps dark brown.  The car seems to accelerate fine, perhaps a little boggy which might be due to the light spring.  When lifting off the throttle after a full throttle burst I see some smoke from the tail pipes momentarily. It's hard to tell the color but it looks very light.

I'm thinking that because the plugs are sooty that either the engine is running rich on the primaries (it's mostly just done some cruising) or the plugs are too cold.  I had Accel 0786 plugs for the first 100 miles which looked pretty much the same when I took them out.(The Eddy heads take a totally different plug size than the stock heads)

Where to start?  What is a good plug for this combo?  I thought about buying a good O2 analyzer but they are little pricey. :biggrin:
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD




Oldschool

  • Guest
Re: Need Tuning Help
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2006 - 09:16:30 PM »
Matt,

I have had the same thing happen to my rebuilt Hemi's in the past.  I used Chrome-Moly rings in them and until the rings seated, they absolutely ate spark plugs.  The machinist told me to bear with it and it would stop doing it.  He was correct.  Some took a little longer than others, but none were even close at 200 miles.  More like 500-1000 miles.  When they seat in, they are awesome, but until then, prepare to change spark plugs often.  If you used another type of ring that seats faster, then you might have other issues that you have previously mentioned.  Bottom line--Chrome Moly rings---relax and drive it--it will stop soon.  Just my 0.02..........    :cooldancing: 

Offline matt63

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1855
Re: Need Tuning Help
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2006 - 10:21:36 PM »
Thanks for the reply.  I'm pretty sure they are chrome moly rings.  I thought these things seated faster.  Perhaps I should get a bunch more miles on it before doing any more fine tuning since it seems to run fine.  The exhaust tips seem be dark brown inside so I don't think it is running overly rich.   
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD

Offline matt63

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1855
Re: Need Tuning Help
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2006 - 11:06:09 PM »
Thanks for the reply.  I'm pretty sure they are chrome moly rings.  I thought these things seated faster.  Perhaps I should get a bunch more miles on it before doing any more fine tuning since it seems to run fine.  The exhaust tips seem be dark brown inside so I don't think it is running overly rich.   
I checked on the rings.  They are Speed Pro plasma moly rings so they should have seated quickly.
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD

Offline moper

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2368
Re: Need Tuning Help
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2006 - 06:27:12 AM »
Matt, I agree with Oldschool. Give them some time. Not knowing who did the machine work, I can tell you getting the new moly rings to seat as fast as advertised takes a bit of effort. The finish on the bores has to be very smooth (in comparison to std honing). The wall finish needs to be smoother than 30Ra IIRC, and that comes by plateau honing or brushing. If it's too rough, the moly is very quickly rubbed off the top ring, and they are plain iron under that. So it will take 500-1000 miles for the rings to fully seat. You are still breaking in parts of it, so patience is the key. It sounds as tho your tune is close to spot on. Just put some highway cruising on it. The old guys will remember the long highway jaunts slowly going from 55 to 85 mph, then lightly coasting down to 55 again "so the oil gets pulled up the walls and the rings seat"  :roflsmiley:.

Offline KellysCuda aircard

  • Its good to be blown
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 868
Re: Need Tuning Help
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2006 - 03:26:09 PM »
Matt, check with Jim at Jass Auto, he can help you get where you need.

Offline matt63

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1855
Re: Need Tuning Help
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2006 - 04:54:30 PM »
Matt, check with Jim at Jass Auto, he can help you get where you need.
What does this guy do exactly ?
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD

Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Need Tuning Help
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2006 - 12:36:43 AM »
watch the center ceramic for color , it usually ends up light tan depending on th eheat range of the plug though & I don`t use NGK plugs
 tailpipes are a poor indicator 

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline matt63

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1855
Re: Need Tuning Help
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2006 - 09:54:52 PM »
I made some progress tonight.  I stopped at my engine machinists shop (Bel Engines) and talked to him about a good baseline plug selection and reading plugs.  He always has time and is interested in helping.  As a note, Larry had a Champion plug reader (magnifier/light) which I've never seen before.  I ended up buying a new set of NGK's R5671A-7 heat range 7 plus a couple of extras for WOT tuning per CP and Bel's recommendation.  He reminded me that turning off the ignition locks the steering wheel and to be careful - I guess there has been some close calls!  The plugs are nice because they have alot of clearance between the porcelain and the body so they are easier to read.  I gapped the plugs at 0.035" and changed the secondary carb spring back to the plain stock spring.  The car really responded well.  It wanted to rev more up high and the tires would go up in smoke if you stabbed the throttle from 10 or 15 mph (made me giggle like a girl).  As Imade 2 changes at the same time it is hard to know what worked but I'll attribute most of this due to the different spring selection.  I'll go with this for my baseline now.  I pulled a plug when I got home and it looked okay. The porcelain is dark brown so it might be a bit rich yet. 
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD

Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Need Tuning Help
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2006 - 01:27:16 AM »
try dropping a couple of jet sizes , the plugs should lighten up & you should feell the power increase as well

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline matt63

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1855
Re: Need Tuning Help
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2006 - 06:43:39 AM »
Thanks CP.  Should I change the primary and secondaries?
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD

Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Need Tuning Help
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2006 - 09:55:15 AM »
do 1 change at a time so just do the primarys the secondarys really only come in at higher RPM  &can be adjusted more easily once the front is dialed in   

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline matt63

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1855
Re: Need Tuning Help
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2006 - 01:52:46 PM »
Thks CP.
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD

Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Need Tuning Help
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2006 - 11:31:56 PM »
Sure

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline matt63

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1855
Re: Need Tuning Help
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2006 - 07:58:23 AM »
I also found out that the stock power valve is a 4.5 when I should have a 6.5 as I am running 12" of vacuum at idle - not sure how much this will help.
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD