440 Issues

[440Charger]

Hi guys,

I've been reading these discussion threads and am impressed by all the knowledge foating around here so I thought I'd register and post up regarding my 440 and the problem I'm having.

Here's the engine build:
- The engine has been blue printed, line honed, and balanced
- Lunati cam (480/292)
- stainless valves (2.14 intake & 1.81 exhaust)
- TWR pistons (raised) (bored .30 over)
- '78 452 heads, shaved to ensure flat surface, 3 angle valve job, no porting
- Mallory distributor, MSD ignition & blaster coil
- The distributor has an internal timing advance at 20 degrees
- Barry Grant Speed Demon 750 - vacuum secondaries, electronic choke
- M1 Dual Plane intake
- It is estimated that the compression ratio is close to 9.8:1.
- 3:55 rear end w/sure-grip
- 727 Torque-Flite
- Hedman Headers 1 3/4'' tubes, 3'' collector
- Flowmaster 50 Exhaust 2''

My main problem is with the timing.  As you saw, I had my distributer curved to 20 degrees advance by a guy who does this for race engines.  When I set the initial timing I can't get more than 9 degrees before it pings like crazy.  From everything I've read, with stock 440 heads I should be allowed 38 degrees total advance but I'm sitting at around 29.....and I have no idea why!  I always run 92 octane gas.

Out of the hole performance is bad.  It slowly builds RPM until it hits around 2500 then it really goes.  Currently there is no stall converter, but I'm thinking a 2400 stall would really help. 

Also, I'm noticing a delayed response when holding it in 2nd gear and going to WOT at around 45mph.  I feels like the vacuum secondaries have a delayed opening, even though I've installed the weakest spring Barry Grant gave me.

Overall I think most of my performance problems are due to the timing, but I can't advance over about 29 degrees.  Very frustrating!  Any tips would be greaty appreciated!

Lastly, the engine seems to run quite hot.  Once I get on in once or twice I'm up to 210 in the summer, and sometimes it creaps to 220.  I have a 3core rad with a clutch fan.

Thanks,

(also, there is a very audible whisteling sound that occurs when I'm really going hard over 3000rpm and I let off the throttle.  It's kinda cool, but I'm wondering if it's normal...it's coming from the carb)

[MEK-Dangerfield]

First off, welcome aboard here. 

  You most definitely need that 2400 stall converter. I also think 92 octane is a bit too low for you. I have basically the same setup as you, with only minor differences. My car wants to run at about 14 degrees before top dead center, but I have to retard it to 12 degrees to get by with 93 octane. You also should have somewhere in the area of 36-38 degrees total advance in your timing.


  Mike

[440Charger]

Thanks MEKrunner 

I'll try to find some higher octane fuel around here.  I was thinking that could be part of the problem.

Yeah 36-38 would be great if I could go there without a ton of ping.  I'm stumped....

[MEK-Dangerfield]

OK, here's another little secret that I have been using. Let's just call it "ping no more". 


   http://www.kemcooil.com/product_info.php?pId=61


  Mike

[440Charger]

Just checked out that site.  So lets say, hypothetically, I put this additive in and it boosts my tank of gas to around 98 or 100 octane, and I can advance my timing to 38 finally...wouldn't that mean my compression ratio (9.5:1) is alot higher than I think it is?

(I forgot to mention that I can't even chirp the tires when I gun it from a dead stop   )

Thanks,

- Doug

[MEK-Dangerfield]

Just checked out that site.  So lets say, hypothetically, I put this additive in and it boosts my tank of gas to around 98 or 100 octane, and I can advance my timing to 38 finally...wouldn't that mean my compression ratio (9.5:1) is alot higher than I think it is?

Thanks,

- Doug

Doug,

  Mine is 10:1, so I'm on the edge using 93 octane. I just use this to get me to 95. So yes, if you need that much octane, you are MUCH higher than I am. Like I said, you need a stall converter, but that has nothing to do with your pinging. So maybe you are higher than 10:1??  That would explain it.

  Mike

[MEK-Dangerfield]

Doug,

  I see you modified your original post. Not having the timing advanced enough can cause overheating. Mine runs cool as a clam. Also, the whistle you hear is a vacuum leak. Either from under the carb., or from under the intake manifold. That isn't good.


  Mike

[440Charger]

Mike,

Great info!  I'll try to find a 93 octane in my area, and probably tap into that octane boost.  If that lets me advance my timing, then I'll assume my compression ratio is at 10:1 or a bit more.

Regarding that whistling sound....wow...if I have a vacuum leak I'll be embarrassed because we put alot of love into building this engine.  But I was wondering why a whistling sound would occur through the carb....I guess a small leak somewhere would explain that.  I'm using a 1'' thick black rubbery type thing as a gasket between the carb and manifold for heat reasons.  I don't think there is a normal gasket there at all.  I remember an article talking about spraying liquid around that area to check for bubbling, which would indicate a leak.......? 

Any opinion on those things that raise the carb off the manifold rather than a thin gasket?  I have noticed that when I check once in a while, the carb bolts can usually be tighted down....

(yes I've been editing as I remember all the little quirks I've seen over the summer...trying to provide as much info as possible:)

Many thanks,

- Doug

[MyMopar]

Spraying carb cleaning around the base of the carb, intake ports and other sources of vacuum is a great tool for finding and eliminating the leaks.  If you spray and the engine smoothes out, then you have a vac. leak in that area.
As far as spacers and such, you can run the plastic spacers but you should also use the 4 hole (on top) and open (on bottom) carb gaskets. My local speed shop has them for a few bucks and even Auto ZOne, Advanced auto, etc.. carry them for cheap.  The plastic alone will not help seal the carb to intake. 

[Chryco Psycho]

Firtsly your compression with dome pistons & shaved open chamber heads will be at least 10.5 :1 or even 11:1  & more if you used steel instead of  compositon head gaskets
a friend has a similar combo and it runs great ...On AVGAS
you need to put in a  minimum 3400 stall converter to get the load off the engine below that RPM , I doubt it will ping above that even with the timing advanced to 38*
 What RPM are you idling at ? I bet you are running off the main circuit & have the throttle open enough to cause the whistle just to keep it running
 carb spacer can work too but it will not help the pinging , , the intake is a total mismatch to the rest of the combo , I would use a Holley Streed intake in it`s place & possibly a 1 " open spacer

[Jacksboys]

If you change the intake, I would suggest the Performer RPM; gives you great low end torque without killing the top end power.

[440Charger]

After Mike suggested I may have a vaccum leak, we called Jegs and found out that we do not have the correct spacer.  And on top of that, we don't have any gaskets on either side of the spacer....so we've ordered the proper spacer which comes with a gasket set  .  It's funny because to get a good idle and take off I've had to richen up the idle screws alot...that would explain that.  We like to idle at about 700 or 800.  The car has been stalling out at startup and slow takeoff almost since we started running it.

Chryco and jacksboys just added to the chorus of people telling me I have the wrong intake.  I called a guy who builds race engines and he told me that not only do I have the wrong intake, but that M1 intakes in general aren't that good.  He recommended an Edlebrock Performer.  I was searching the forums yesterday and one of the members commented that the M1 dual plane is junk.

Chryco - I think we used a thick gasket on the heads to try to keep it under 10:1.  And I think the shave was just enough to ensure the heads would seat flat.

I'll try that carb cleaner trick.

 

[440Charger]

Found this one at Jegs: http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?lang=-1&catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=21397
It's the unpolished intake at the bottom for the 440 ($182.99).

Is the the recommended Edlebrock Performer intake?

[Chryco Psycho]

Wow talk about going from bad to worse , the M1 is a decent intake , basically a copy of the factory Iron intake
 the Performer is anything but , you will lose power from the stock or M1 intake
the RPM will give you bottom end power But with the long duration cam & a higher stall converter any advantage gained with better bottom end power will not be felt with a loose converter
 to match your cam you need a single plane intake & the Street Dom is about the best in the midrange to upopper power  band + it is one of the cheapest intakes to buy & it sits low so it has lots of air cleaner clearance , the part # is 300-14 , you should be able to get it for $200 or less 

[440Charger]

Really? My cam is that big (480/292) that I could use a single plane???  I know what duration is, but I have no idea where mine fits in range wise.  I wouldn't know if it's a long or short duration compared to others.  Is there a resource for that info you could direct me to?

We're probably going to go with a 2400 stall.  3400 seems way too high for the street, and this is a street car and I don't to gas out the guy behind me at a stoplight lol.

We're hoping to stay with good torque rather than high rpm's over 5500 or so.

Keep in mind that I can't even chirp the tires in 1st, so I definitely have a low end problem.