Author Topic: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.  (Read 3148 times)

Offline JimCuda

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Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« on: November 01, 2006 - 07:00:32 PM »
Here are some engine questions for you engine nuts!

1.) If you buy an internally balanced crank, what machine work do you need to have done?
2.) Anyone here convert there 2 bolt to 4 bolt mains here? How much does that cost and is it really needed?
3.) If you were to buy new pistons, rods and crank all together, how much balancing is required?
4.) Any way to avoid the machine shop on balancing?

As you can see I have been looking for parts for a rebuild.





Offline 67Vette427

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Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2006 - 09:35:04 AM »
1. If its a used crank, check for cracks and turn if needed.
2. I don't think its needed. Are you going to race it or pull heavy trailers?
3. All needs to be balanced, including the dampner, flex plate or flywheel.
4. Its easier to let them do it and cheaper.

A balanced motor will pay off in the long run with less stress on all parts.
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Offline moper

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Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2006 - 10:11:08 AM »
1. Cranks are not internal or external. They are just cranks. How the assembly needs to be balanced is partially determined by crank design and material. cast cranks and heavy pistons and rods generally need to have external parts to balance them, but any crank can be internally balanced by adding heavy metal (called Mallory metal) to the counterweights. I don't believe a true performance engine build should have externalbalancing. But that's me.

2. I'm aasuming you mean for a small block? If you're used to GM castings (sorry 67  :bigshades:) then you know why they needed 4 bolt caps. The iron is less than perfect. Mopars have always used better iron in thier blocks. Also, the main bolts IIRC are larger in Mopars. The factory small blocks do not have the provision for 4 bolt mains. That is, they dont have the extra meat to really make 4 bolt caps stronger and more stable. T/A version blocks have this extra meat, but were 2 bolt from the factory. The newer MP X and R blocks have 4 bolt mains because they were designed with them in mind. Run a good set of caps (I use Pro Gram), run studs as opposed to bolts, and you are fine for up to 600hp N/A. More than that, you really should be buying a new block anyway.

3. All depends ont eh package. A good crank is a heavier (more dense) material, and so weighs more. That means the counterweights can be smaller, or shaped for better windage control. Also, lighter pistons and rods mean the counterweights are too big anyway (what you want...) and then balancing is only drilling out material. In all cases, I prefer my own mahcine sho pto balance, because I know what equipment they use, and I have seen them use it. My assemblies are always internally balanced to within .2grams. A factory assembly (say an internally balanced forged crank 340) will be + or - 25 grams. And I've seen work from other shops where they considered being + or - 10 grams as "In balance". The finer the result, the smoother, more powerful, and longer lived the engine will be.

4. You cannot do the work yourself. Period. If you have the fixture to seperately weight the big and small ends of the rod, and a scale that is accurate to .001grams, you can make the process cheaper. But...Once you have all the weights, and plug them into the formula, then you still have to fit the crank with the bob weights, and spin it to find the ehavy spots, then be able to remove the proper amounts from the exact right spot. Old machines use a strobe light to mark the right spots. The place I use has a computer run spin balancer, that tells you how big a diameter hole based on material, and how deep t go to remove the exact amount. It costs me $300 for internal balancing, and additional for any Mallory metal used. If you are running the MP 4" cast crank, you will need Mallory metal.
 :cheers:

Offline JimCuda

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Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2006 - 01:38:03 PM »
Thanks for all the info guys, this is what I thought I was going to hear based on the read material I have come across. However reading is one thing, hearing first hand from people that have gone down that road is another story.

If its a used crank, check for cracks and turn if needed.

It is a used crank, however it is aftermarket and from wha I can see on the journals and the bearings she is clean. Considering it has been sitting around in the motor for 13 years. Motor turned by hand, so I am considering using it again, however the part number on it notes it is a cast afftermarket crank.

I'm aasuming you mean for a small block? If you're used to GM castings (sorry 67  :bigshades:) then you know why they needed 4 bolt caps.

Yes, I have a 340 small block. Its the original block for the car, however some has dug out the internals at one time and had it bored out .030 from the stock 4.040. And much like you stated it is a 2 bolt main like any other LA block, just read something about stroker kits and the option of big hp with 4 bolt mains helping hold it together.

My current crank appears to be a cast crank as stated above, after market mopar I beam rods (cast) / floating pin and (cast) pistons (unknown manuf / comp ratio). Owner had a valve drop on on one of the pistons, didn't damage the piston wall, however the piston is toast.

That being said I am considering reusing the crank however it always seems that everone frowns on the use of cast parts. What are you guys running? Cast or Forged? and of course how much horse power you are putting to the bottom end.

If you have any recommendations I would of course apprecaite your ideas.




Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2006 - 06:12:23 PM »
Mopar cast cranks are plenty strong enough for virtually any engine combe unless you are going Radical , the Big issue is balancing , steel cranks are much easier to balance & get flywheels for  , 4 bolt caps really are not needed again unless you go radical

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Offline JimCuda

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Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2006 - 07:49:02 PM »
Define radical? 500hp? 600hp? 800hp!!

I want to build a motor that will take a good nitrous hit.

Offline tactransman

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Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2006 - 08:04:30 PM »
Define radical? 500hp? 600hp? 800hp!!

I want to build a motor that will take a good nitrous hit.
How good? :bigsmile:
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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2006 - 11:10:31 PM »
anything over 550 net hp I would be definatly using a steel crank

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Offline moper

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Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2006 - 06:05:54 AM »
I would say you need to define what you want out of it. You cant see cracks in a crank with your eyes. If you can, chances are, it already broke and took out the engine with it. I'm sure sure what you mean by what parts you have, or what you want. The factory block simply cannot hold up to large doses of NOS when it's supporting 500+hp already. Add a girdle, add caps, add 4 bolt caps..It will not survive for long. You must use top of the line parts, for strength and light weight to make it easier ont eh block if you want to run that. I consider anything over 250hp plate kits to be "large doses". Use a callies Dragonslayer, some Oilver I beam rods, and J&E or CP pistons, add a set of 2bolt caps for #1-#4 mains, and it will take 3-350hp of NO2 right off the line. But wh ywould you do that with a nubers matching block? It's poor planning IMO. And the cost of the internals and the labor will go well beyond the cost of a new MP 340 block even after having it checked and corrected. You can either spend on the foundation, or spend on keeping the parts light and of the highest quality. But, when you are talking making real power at these levels (like 500+) with a small block, you are looking at spending more on the support systems..Fuel, powertrain, ignition, exh, brakes, chassis, and safety all have to be addressed. And a real 550hp stroker small block is downright scary fast on street radials. Every cruise night has "500hp" engine cars there. Most barely make 325 at the crank. So what are your plans? What is your budget? What is the rest of the car like? How do you plan to drive the car 90% of the time? Cruise nights? Highway commuter? Highway blasts to far away shows? Drag racing?

Offline JimCuda

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Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2006 - 07:30:53 PM »
So what are your plans? What is your budget? What is the rest of the car like? How do you plan to drive the car 90% of the time? Cruise nights? Highway commuter? Highway blasts to far away shows? Drag racing?

You've got my attention. This is why I posted here. My goal is to make the 340 motor perform and perform well. With many new cars making 250-350 hp now a days, and many of them lighter a good combination of parts to make good power is what I'm looking for. Boost is an option, however much like yourself I would love to make good power without it. Cruise nights are fine but sending down the 1/4 is right there too and to keep ahead of the new generation of power cars. 

Use a callies Dragonslayer, some Oilver I beam rods, and J&E or CP pistons, add a set of 2bolt caps for #1-#4 mains, and it will take 3-350hp of NO2 right off the line.

Got a prefered place to buy these parts? And I assume that you run these in your small block or have? What kind of power are we talking here with a good set of J-heads(2.02/1.60)? What intake, carb and cam setup?

New springs, shocks and a break system refresh is in order for this tired 340 'cuda. The body is straight but has some spots here and there that I'm working on fixing up. It will be in primer until next year I suspose but the power train is my current area of planning. The transmission will be refreshed with a B&M kit.The motor is 30 over from stock and looks clean enough to clean up the bore and replan with parts. Yes it will be observed by a shop and the parts to be used balanced. It is now just a matter of finding the right combo so I don't waste my time or money. I am on budget as everyone else here so hence the reasons for the questions asked. Do it once, do it right.

I'm interested in any combos you know work, and ones that make 400-500 hp without boost. I do not want to blow a hole in the factory block. It would be a very sad end to a matching numbers 'cuda that has been looking for a good home after 13 years of sitting in someone's driveway. Now that it is mine I want to represent the lost years well.

-Jim

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2006 - 11:15:13 AM »
for serious power I would sell or store the J heads , they really do not make enough power , the newer 308 castings will make about 40 more rear wheel HP or 63 more hp at the crank , W2 / W5 heads will make a Lot more power & there are a # of other good aftermarket choices as well

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Offline JimCuda

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Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2006 - 01:40:01 PM »
How much?

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2006 - 02:15:35 PM »
How much more power or $$$

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Offline JimCuda

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Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2006 - 08:32:50 PM »
How much more power or $$$

Need the info, rofl   :bigsmile:

Ok, let me put it this way. I don't think a person here wouldn't deny themselves a set of indy heads for $1000 and I am sure they would flow better than a set of J-Heads. However the way I see, considering I already have a set of heads that aren't ready for retirement, a $1000 extra bucks kept in the bucket for better bottom end parts or machine work would go a long way further. Heads on the other hand can be upgraded later.

Just looking for some combination ideas, ones that work, produce good numbers, have been tested, last, and of course the bottom line price to get there. (Machine work included).

You know you want to share!  :cooldancing:

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2006 - 11:15:24 PM »
well a proted set of 308 castings will gain you 41 RWHP over J heads  & can be picked up from the wreckers for under $100 usually but i have used them on milder street engines Not all out stroker efforts , guaranteed it will make more power with them but it still costs $$
 generally I have used relatively mild cams with them , Hyd or mild solid grinds

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