Author Topic: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.  (Read 3146 times)

Offline JimCuda

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 444
  • MOPAR > Move Over Plymouth Approaching Rapidly
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2006 - 09:24:28 AM »
well a proted set of 308 castings will gain you 41 RWHP over J heads  & can be picked up from the wreckers for under $100 usually

Just to clearify, are you refering to the 308 late model 360 head (1989-1993)? Will that work on a 340? Will I have to use a late model 360 intake at that point? Do you know what the CC is on that head?







Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2006 - 12:08:24 AM »
308 was used 87 -92 & takes the early standard LA intake , the Magnum heads use the vertical intake bolts & different intake

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline moper

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2368
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2006 - 08:07:17 AM »
I dont think I agree on 308s giving that much more power. When any of the 340/360 head designs gets fully ported, they are within 10% of each other. I dont think they'll give a 60hp boost (at the crank) even with porting just by bolting them on. I've enver seen that kind of result even in pro ported examples. In stock form, the 308 has a faster port, and a better exh port, but in full race ported form, they make no more real power than any other race ported LA head.  :dunno:

AS far as using your #s matchign engine, I wouldnt for 2 reasons. First, in any longer than stock stroke build, you want the thickest cylinder walls you can get. If you are .030 now, you'll need to go up to .040. By itself, not really fatal ina  street engine. I've built 2 like that with no issues even with over 500hp. But, the pistons for .040 over are custom, or at least they are catalogued that way, and priced that way. You should not go .060 over IMO for any reason unless each bore is carefully sonic checked. For the cost of another block purchase, and not reusing associated parts, you get investment insurance for the life of the car. A customer I'm building a trans for is doing just that. The car (a two owner '70 340 4sp Cuda he's owned since 1973) is in the body shop now, almost complete with their end of the work. He rebuilt the numbers engine with a nice performance build, and a hotter cam. That is what's going into the car when it's done, for the "show season" next summer. He has a second 340 that will be the crazy 416. There are a lot of things that can go wrong and losing the numbers block because of a problem really hurts the value.

That being said, a 500 hp 418 (340 block at .040 over) is a mild build. That could be supported by race ported factory heads, but that's about the limit. The fact is, they just cant move the kind of air the 4" crank likes. On teh cranks, I've used callies a couple times. They are..for lack of a better term..perfect, in every detail for a reliable high hp build. They are not too expensive ($900) vs the MP, they will take 50% more power easy, balance easier, and are demensionally dead nutz every time. I get mine from Mancini Racing. I have not used Oliver rods. I havent reached the level where I feel the customer will need them. At $1200/set, they arent exactly budget. I use Eagle H beams in the majority of my 4" stroker engines. I wont use SIR, Scat, or others' less expensive rod. I'll use factory rods first. The rotating kit from Mancini runs around $2500 for crank, rods, Diamond forged pistons, file to fit rings, and main and rod bearings. Not a bad deal really. All together, an Edelbrock headed 418 with a modest sized solid roller will make 560+hp N/A on pump gas, and rev to 7000 rpm. An engine like that will cost about $8500 complete, intake to pan, all new except the block casting. (caps would be Pro Grams)  You can build a lower budget pump gas with the MP crank for about $2300 less that will make in excess of 500hp under 6000 rpm, with a hydraulic cam on pump gas, or a true "budget build" for about $4000 reusing your heads, MP crank, hyper pistons, and stock rods. Hp would be a guess and my recommended redline with it would be 5800. I doubt your heads are in as good a shape as I'd like them to be valve job and porting wise. If they need to be gone thru, add $1000. These are pretty fair real world estimates. You can cut corners, and ebay shop if you need to. Just be careful..almost nothing you read on there is valid info any more. A solid 340 could be built for less $$, and easily make the 450-475hp level you are asking about too. I'd say depending on what you can or want to reuse, you could spend as little as $3500 or so.

Offline JimCuda

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 444
  • MOPAR > Move Over Plymouth Approaching Rapidly
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2006 - 07:54:37 PM »
Wow, now thats what I'm talking about. There is some good information, appreicate it guys.

At 400-450hp, do you guys think I can get away with cast parts? I've seen stroker cast cranks and wondered about the use of them. I can't imagine people would make them and they would be no good. What are your thoughts?

With all that is being said about the old school heads I might just sell the J-Heads and make up the difference and get new heads. Indy, Edelbrock any ideas here on brand, cost and effectiveness of any brand?

Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2006 - 11:26:41 PM »
I have not seen the small block Indy heads in person but given what I have seen of both Indy & Eddy product I would be inclined to do Indy over the Eddy

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline moper

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2368
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2006 - 06:29:25 AM »
The cast MP cranks will safely handle 500-550hp. Beyond that, I think time will tell. They cost $330. When I have a factory crank done, it gets magged, index corrected, turned, and polished. The last bill was $350. I get a crank that dimensionally is better than the MP crank, but is still only stock stroke. Both need to be balanced, but the factory forged (340) crank will be cheaper to balance, because the mass of forged steel is greater than that of cast. The cast will almost always need some Mallory metal. And that's billed by the ounce, and gets pricey fast. Sometimes buying the cheaper means you have to spend it elsewhere. :dunno:
I also have not held a set of Indy LA heads. I use the budget and airflow requirements to determine whose heads I buy. The Edelbrocks are always cheaper initially, and require what I would call "std for aftermarket product" correction. But they were designed with street cars in mind..Not race cars. The Indys have a better chamber, but in as-cast form, will not flow near what the company claims. As far as work required, if it's the same shop that does thier big block heads (those I'm pretty familiar with), they will need the same work as the Edelbrocks to get right. That's what I've heard and read form guys that have used them. With the ports cleaned up, they will flow a lot of air. Ceratinly much more than a 500-550hp engine needs. So I would back away from Indys for yours. They cost more, and will hurt a stock stroke engine a lot, and a 4" engine a little low down. Properly worked, the Indys will make more power on a 4" engine than the Edelbrocks tho. Of course, the logo valve covers and cool looks also have a bonus too...lol.

Offline JimCuda

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 444
  • MOPAR > Move Over Plymouth Approaching Rapidly
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2006 - 05:49:47 PM »
Sounds to me that I will go cast with the crank. The current cast crank is not forged as it was a 73, and seeing it was replaced with another cast crank I don't really see what the guy gained aside from a new crank. My best research on the current crank is that it is a stock replacement. Thus it has got to go.

The one I was considering was a Mopar 4" crank, 2-Piece Seal, Internal Balance, Cast Steel, Standard Snout. for under $400.

Rods you ask? I was thinking the Eagle ESP H-beam rods however I am still eye-balling the Eagle SIR I-beams. Why? because I have read that with the H rods will require block milling to allow for full rod travel. Can anyone confirm this?

Pistons manufacture and compression are still up in the air. Got any ideas?

Ok, now I'm back to where I started with the heads. So if Indy heads are too much and Eddy heads are ok. Anyone got any objections with cleaning up the J-Heads with the current combo? Trying to shoot for 400-490hp. Can the J-heads do it or should I just dump the heads? Trying to avoid the 1400 for a set of new heads, however they are a great key to power as you all know.

Bottom line, I'm looking for a street cruiser with break neck torque but not over the top un-streetable performance.

Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2006 - 10:27:14 PM »
the 41 HP gain I witnessed was ont he same dyno removing unported J & installing ported 308 heads , I have ported Js in the past & have not been very impressed with the overall port design , I have not done a ported to ported comparison yet but you have the J s so use them the heads can be swapped later if desired
 there are other options as well Mopar has the W2 iron / W5 alum heads , these are Proven to make a lot of power

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline moper

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2368
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2006 - 10:28:43 AM »
Seeing is believing CP...lol. None of the small block mopar ports are very good..lol. And you gotta be real careful with buying W5s. They had terrible casting issues. I'd lean towards econo W2 style if I had to go MP.

As far as rods go..I will not use SIR rods, Scat, or similar $2-300 a set things. They have quality issues that cannot be found or corrected until it's broken. Casting and material flaws that I've seen and read about more than a few times. So I wont run them. I'll use stock rods redone first. With the 4" crank, all rods I know of will need the bottoms of the bores notched to clear the rod bolts. This can be done with a dremel if you're careful. Nothing fancy there. AS far as pistons go, I like Diamond Forged for 4" strokers, and I'd run either Diamond or J&E, or the KB hypereutectics in a street engine. Budget/preference depending.

Bottom line, you want streetable with good manners, and huge usable power..you gotta go 4" arm, and pay the cost.

Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2006 - 03:33:06 PM »
we jsut finished machining a 360 with the latest w2 - 769 part # 59* head with 65 cc closed chamber the engine is going into & Lil Red Express & should be running by spring as the whole truck is apart for resto right now I will post results as soon as I get them

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline JimCuda

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 444
  • MOPAR > Move Over Plymouth Approaching Rapidly
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2006 - 07:11:58 PM »
What CC head are stock J Heads and 73 340/360 heads?

Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2006 - 07:41:38 PM »
68cc approx

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline JimCuda

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 444
  • MOPAR > Move Over Plymouth Approaching Rapidly
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2006 - 09:27:22 PM »
Thx CP. As always you keep the info coming.  :worshippy

Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2006 - 09:46:34 PM »
I offer what I can with what experience i have which definatly is not everything!!
« Last Edit: November 10, 2006 - 12:54:27 AM by Chryco Psycho »

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline JimCuda

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 444
  • MOPAR > Move Over Plymouth Approaching Rapidly
Re: Balance or No Balance? That is the question.
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2006 - 10:18:31 PM »
Considering that I have never put together a complete motor, done minor motor work (intake,carb,cam,heads, never the bottom end), so this will be truely be an experience. I however always have my eyes and ears open to all ideas, can't displace experience and I appreciate your insite.

-Jim