Author Topic: Flow Info  (Read 2425 times)

nivvy

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Flow Info
« on: December 07, 2006 - 04:59:38 PM »
This is the email that hughes has sent me reguarding them flowing the new BB Victor head....Does this make sense to anyone?

Jason,
We have been redesigning the porting patterns on all of our cylinder heads to result in what we will call "fat flow" curves. We are working on increasing the area under the curve by increasing flow ing the lower and mid lift ranges. This type porting reduces the maximum high lift numbers, but there is a 2 and sometimes a3 to 1 area gain by doing it. This results in much better cylinder filling more power and torque. The draw back to this type porting is that potential customers that seem to race flow benches and are only concerned with flow at maximum lift, do not really understand air flow requirements for building power. The Victor heads really seem to respond well to this type pattern as we have increased flow numbers in the .100" to .550" range over other similar heads about 10 to 15 cfm and we are still working on them.
 
We will not trade-off low and mid flow for any peak numbers.
 
We work with a 4.375" bore sleeve, 440 port size so far! Keep an eye out for a more complete explanation on our website tech article "Air flow and other Dirty Little Secrets." We are not finished with the intakes yet - same with the pricing.




Offline 6packCuda

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Re: Flow Info
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2006 - 05:34:06 PM »
That makes sense. The thing I don't understand is, I keep hearing the Victor heads referred to as "race only" heads. Why is that? What could make them un-streetable? :dunno:
Dave

nivvy

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Re: Flow Info
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2006 - 06:20:10 PM »
I am really leaning to Modern Cylinder Head to buy a set of heads from them....They provide me with flow sheets and take time to answer all of my questions...Modern is currently in the process of max wedge porting a set of victors and will give out flow results!!! Cant wait!! Ill post when I get a sheet, Jeff at modern doesnt think the victors MW ported will out flow the EZ's but I guess we'll see soon!
Now on the other hand Hughes has claims in Mopar muscle of flowing 370cfm stage 3 ported @ .700 lift with standard 440 ports?????
No proof to back this up though..
Indy cant even get that kind of flow on cnc ported max wedge opening EZ's....Indy flows 355 @ .700 lift...Thats 30HP more with smaller victor ports??? something smells fishy?


Offline moper

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Re: Flow Info
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2006 - 11:06:40 AM »
Now you're beginning to smell "real life" in the performance business. What hughes is telling you is that they are not as concerned with high peak numbers, but more in low and mid lift numbers. But..and here's the but..his mid and low lift numbers arent any better (or worse) than anybody else. So why then give you peak flow readings at all? Max ported heads of the MW -1 type will usually max out between 330-360cfm from what I've seen. Again, it's misleading to compare readings from two diferent benches IMO. I know of a few sets that touch the 390-400cfm range at peak, but those  are sepcial race heads..not something that gets idled thru the local Micky D's. Std ports seem to peter out around 320-350. Eventually you simply cannot get enough air thru the minimum cross section which ends up being the port opening as opposed to the pushrod area.  So where's the secret? The secret is, he's just telling you what he thinks you want to hear. There are "secrets" pertaining to valve seat angles, valve type, and back cut angles on the intake valves. But these arent secrets. Everybody uses them. Ask him for flow readings for the range of .100-400". That is the lift range most street cams have their "fat spot" in. They spend the most time off the seat in that range. If the heads flow well (staying stable and fast) thru that range you'll have a good running street/strip engine. 

Offline Oldschool

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Re: Flow Info
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2006 - 12:08:32 PM »
  :iagree:   Well said Moper..

This is the same point I was trying to make in an earlier thread:    "Max valve size to Pistons"

This is from that post:

Sometimes bigger valves and ports aren't necessarily the way to go.  They will work great if you keep the engine turning some rpm's.  Big ports and valves are great for racing if the rest of the combo can support the flow.  It gets tricky trying to keep flow velocity high enough with big valves and ports when used in street applications.  Too large ports and valves kill flow velocity at low to mid rpm's.  This results in a sluggish feeling bottom end and lack of a crisp throttle response until the r's come up.  If you are going to drag race and keep the r's high enough, then you will see the HP gains you are searching for.  Just my 0.02.......   Others will soon chime in here...         
Ken  --  In Georgia

MOPAR-------"Built To Run------Here To Stay"

Offline moper

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Re: Flow Info
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2006 - 10:46:26 AM »
From what I can glean here and there, the typical street/strip performance enigne wants a port volume roughly  20-25% of the cylinder's swept volume. For a 440 +.030:
swept volume of 56 cubic inches  =  900 cubic centimeters (1ci+16.38cc)
using the 25% figure, you'd want a port in the 225cc area. That's a decent average. Bigger, power goes up in peak and peak rpm...smaller, and toruqe does up and peak rpm goes down.
Edelbrock RPMs are 210cc.
Compare that to a Chapman ported MP head at 285cc (the smallest) and it's at 31%...that would be a peak rpm apprx 20% higher than a typical set of Edelbrocks. If you were aiming for a peak in the 5800 range, your peak with the Chapmans would be 6900+.


nivvy

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Re: Flow Info
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2006 - 12:53:21 PM »
I just want to go as fast as humanly possible on an all motor all steel car!!!! :burnout: lol.... :bananasmi

Offline moper

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Re: Flow Info
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2006 - 10:09:28 AM »
Get rearended by a 8 second car. :bigsmile:

(jk)

Offline firefighter3931

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Re: Flow Info
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2006 - 06:11:33 PM »
Hughes numbers have allways been inflated. They once claimed 330cfm from a factory head.  :screwy:

FWIW, the best numbers i've seen on a std port BB head was on a Chapman 260cc casting.....~350cfm IIRC.


Ron
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006 - 06:13:37 PM by firefighter3931 »
68 Charger RT street/strip Bruiser & 70 Charger RT 440-6pack the ultimate Cruiser

nivvy

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Re: Flow Info
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2006 - 07:03:54 PM »
Yes I saw those heads....I like them....ill find out monday how much they cost...

Offline moper

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Re: Flow Info
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2006 - 11:09:01 AM »
Better be sitting down... :money:

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Flow Info
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2006 - 12:42:02 PM »
I have an engine going together this week with the Victor heads , stock intakes will fit , the heads ahve the spacer for the raised port design cast in , the exhaust is a raised port & may need custom headers , we will know soon , I will be fitting up the rocker shafts tomoorrow to see how the tip alignment is , nothing screams race only so far Oh & the ports can be ported out to Maxwedge size 

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

nivvy

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Re: Flow Info
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2006 - 01:09:54 PM »
thx...let me know....

Offline firefighter3931

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Re: Flow Info
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2006 - 07:47:28 PM »
I have an engine going together this week with the Victor heads , stock intakes will fit , the heads ahve the spacer for the raised port design cast in , the exhaust is a raised port & may need custom headers , we will know soon , I will be fitting up the rocker shafts tomoorrow to see how the tip alignment is , nothing screams race only so far Oh & the ports can be ported out to Maxwedge size 


Neil, the ex ports are raised .250in so i bet a tti header would fit fine. Are you gonna dyno the engine ? What's the rest of the combo ?


Thanks, Ron
68 Charger RT street/strip Bruiser & 70 Charger RT 440-6pack the ultimate Cruiser

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Flow Info
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2006 - 07:56:07 PM »
yes it will be dynoed
it has the 2355 piston zero decked , cometic gaskets .580 lift custom comp roller .245* @ .050 440 balanced going in a 69 RR with a 727
M1 single plane intake 3500 stall converter 2" headers & we will be creating a EFI system for it

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t