Author Topic: Reproduction Parts Post Idea (Read 4718 times)

ChallengerDays · « **on:** December 19, 2006 - 03:59:05 PM »

Hi all,

I have an idea. Could a post be created where someone can honestly describe the quality of a reproduction part they just bought? With so many Mopar parts being reproduced today, having a little knowledge of their quality, the place where it was purchased, and the price would be great. For example, I recently bought new plastic seat backs for my Challenger. The seat backs fit fine, but I was unhappy with the shiny finish and the hardness of the plastic; they weren�t as soft and pliable as the originals were. I don�t know if this problem is the same with all reproduced seat backs or if this is limited to only one company. The same goes for the reproduced door handles form Mopar. It�s been said the door handles don�t fit properly and now there�s a new distributor out there supplying better ones. Question�do all these reproduced parts come from the same manufacturing plant and sent out to different distributors, or do these parts distributors find their own manufacturing plant and have their own quality control standards? If all these parts do come from the same place and the quality is the same, then it would be nice to know where the part could be purchased the cheapest. This type of information would be very beneficial for those restoring their cars and don�t mind having a nice shiny new reproduction part from China as long as it fits and looks good. The post could be like a Consumer Report, but only for reproduction Mopar parts. You could call it, Cuda-Challenger�s �Repo Parts Report�. This is only my suggestion. This post may make some parts distributors a little uncomfortable, but having this information would be good for us because this would help keep the prices down. Thank you for your replies and have a great Holiday.

Bill

Lunchbox · « **Reply #1 on:** December 19, 2006 - 04:16:22 PM »

I would like to see the self help/DIY thread take off and build up a nice wealth of information.

Green Drop Top · « **Reply #2 on:** December 19, 2006 - 05:00:24 PM »

Concerning your door panels and seat backs, here's the deal.

Originals were produced using HUGE steel injection molds (each unique panel requiring it's own mold). To reproduce these molds would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars EACH to produce (yes even if made in China using all of the most modern "wiz bang" CNC equipment etc.). The originals were injection molded from Polyethylene (PE) plastic.

Basic procedure: Small pellets of pure PE is heated, melted, squirted into the hollow tool under tons of pressure, cooled with water cooling in the mold, then becoming a solid again but now in the shape of a door panel which is plopped out when the mold opens.

Due to the fact that the original molds are MIA, and to the fact that the huge cost of producing a replacment mold(s) is cost prohibitive, the people now producing and selling what you bought are manufacturing them in a different way. That way is called Thermoforming (or Vaccuum Forming). Polyethylene does not lend itself well to this manufacturing method for this application so they went with a different material, ABS (A styrene based plastic with MAJOR differences in it's physical properties as compared to PE) but it looks similar once formed.

Basic Procedure: Flat pre-formed sheets of ABS with texture already embossed onto one side is heated and draped over an aluminum replica of a door panel shaped mold. The mold has drilled holes all over it to allow vaccuum to be pulled through it. When the heated sheet is dropped down over the mold the vaccuum comes on pulling it down tight. The mold is usually water or air cooled until the sheet hardens again, then the part is hand trimmed around the edges much like a pie crust. The over hang parts you need to install them on the door cannot be formed this way so they are instead, glued onto the panel after forming.

In short what you get is: A panel that will work with the following compromises: The panel looks "Basically" correct but does not have the exact grain or sheen as an original, ABS sheet does not come pre-grained in an exact pattern and custom pattern producing callender/embossing rolls are WAY expensive. The panel is secured to the doors differently from an original and is usually a PIA to install. These reproduction panels that WILL NOT resist harsh chemicals as well as an original (gas and other petroleum based solvents will melt or smudge ABS yet do practically nothing harmful to PE). ABS is a harder/stiffer material than PE so the new panels will add to interior noise reverberating road noise etc. if you tap one with your finger you'll hear a "click" "click" sound, an original has more of a noise cancelling "thud" when tapped.

Bottom line? There are two manufacturers currently making them using the thermoforming method, #1 is Palco, the other is Accuform. Both produce basically the same panel but Palco seems to be a little better and they are the ones you see being sold by pretty much everyone out there (Year One, Legendary,Paddock, etc.). In the case of these reproductions it is my opinion that NOTHING beats originals and although possible, I'd be VERY surprised if anyone ever reproduces them using the proper injection molding method due to the expense.

ChallengerDays · « **Reply #3 on:** December 19, 2006 - 06:33:39 PM »

Thank you, that was very informative and well put. It sounds like you have some experience in this field.

This is the exact information I�m talking about.

It�s good to have this kind of knowledge about these reproduction parts before going out and spending hundreds of dollars on something you may or may not be happy with. Does anyone have any knowledge of the new 1970 headlight bezels being reproduced? How do they look? Do they fit and are they worth the price. This is the web site: http://www.tuffwheelrestoration.com/bezels.html

Green Drop Top · « **Reply #4 on:** December 19, 2006 - 07:15:43 PM »

Quote

Does anyone have any knowledge of the new 1970 headlight bezels being reproduced? How do they look? Do they fit and are they worth the price.

It depends on the vendor. All of the immediately available Cuda grills and headlight bezels on the market are being made the same way, they are being cast from two part Urethane resin. The originals were injection molded from ABS plastic (same method, different resin as used for the factory interior door panels above). Again, the unique properties of the injection molding resin are lost due to the change in raw materials used in the reproductions.

Urethane casting resin does not have the same usable heat range as ABS (Urethanes heat melt window is much narrower). High heat (sun soaked Arizona parking lots etc.) can easily heat them enough to permanantly warp them. Same goes for any other reproduction auto part being made of cast Urethane, such as the currently marketed Cuda grills, marker lamp lenses, tail lamp lenses etc. It's hard to spot parts made of the stuff if you don't know what to look for because the casting resin molds are cast off of origional injection molded parts, all of the tiny original features and part colors are easily duplicated and cast into the new parts such as part#s and casting numbers. The difference is that the cast parts are physically smaller (due to material shrink) and the heat range issues mentioned above.

The stuff does not like heat often seen in the environment around a cars interior and especially the exterior. Keep in mind that casting urethane is typically used to build prototypes not production parts. The low cost of Urethane molds is the orimary reason they are being made that way, personally I would not reccomend using anything made of this stuff.

Now, on another note, B,E,&A Reproductions (and their offshore manufacturing partner PG Classics) is slated to be reproducing properly injection molded Cuda grills and headlight bezels in the very near future. If this happens then that's where I'd buy them. They are also going to make the impossible to find stainless trim for the grills. They currently make injection molded 1970 Cuda grill lenses (the large clear ones). I bought a set and they are extremely nice.

BIGSHCLUNK · « **Reply #5 on:** December 19, 2006 - 07:38:27 PM »

Harms-lots of good info Thanks

Chally-I still think its a great idea! Just look at all the suppiliers that advertise in MOPARCOLLECTORSGUIDE. Iv'e got a post now on a glass question and have only NZ responding.

We need this! IMO

ChallengerDays · « **Reply #6 on:** December 20, 2006 - 02:06:05 PM »

Thanks Harms! I appreciate the info. I�d like to have your opinion. Like I said earlier, I have reproduction seatbacks that I�m not crazy about. I was going to order reproduction door panels from another dealer like Year One, hoping these will be of a better quality. But after reading your information on the production of these plastic parts, I�m thinking of just keeping the original door panels. The only thing wrong with them is there is a crack in the area of where the panel is secured to the door. It�s on the flat flanged surface area in the corner on the driver�s side. The passenger side door panel is in good shape. My question is: Can this be repaired and if it can, will I be able to repair it myself or should it be sent out. I seen some plastic weld type supplies out there, but I�m a little cautious of using them. The crack seems to be in the typically high stressed area and I�m concerned it won�t hold up after it�s been repaired, any suggestions?

MEK-Dangerfield · « **Reply #7 on:** December 20, 2006 - 02:53:24 PM »

Quote from: ChallengerDays on December 20, 2006 - 02:06:05 PM

Thanks Harms! I appreciate the info. I�d like to have your opinion. Like I said earlier, I have reproduction seatbacks that I�m not crazy about. I was going to order reproduction door panels from another dealer like Year One, hoping these will be of a better quality. But after reading your information on the production of these plastic parts, I�m thinking of just keeping the original door panels. The only thing wrong with them is there is a crack in the area of where the panel is secured to the door. It�s on the flat flanged surface area in the corner on the driver�s side. The passenger side door panel is in good shape. My question is: Can this be repaired and if it can, will I be able to repair it myself or should it be sent out. I seen some plastic weld type supplies out there, but I�m a little cautious of using them. The crack seems to be in the typically high stressed area and I�m concerned it won�t hold up after it�s been repaired, any suggestions?

I have to tell you, if there is ANY way to save your original panels, that would be better than the repros out there. SEM makes some great dye for them too. Back to your question though... J.B. Weld is the strongest stuff on the face of the earth as far as making repairs. According to the label, this has been used on blocks.

You should be able to get it at any auto parts store, or maybe even Walmart.

Mike

Green Drop Top · « **Reply #8 on:** December 20, 2006 - 03:25:35 PM »

I agree concerning keeping your originals (or buying good used ones at a swap meet or on ebay) originals are so much better it's not even a close comparison.

Repairing Polyethylene is not easy because it's extremely chemical resistant, most glues, epoxies, or paints do not adhere to it well, if at all. The so called "Dyes" and "plastic paints" on the market are only topical coatings, none of them actually dye through into the plastic. Some hold up for a good long while, but NONE of them will hold up forever. That being said the best stuff I've seen is SEMS dye out of a spray can, works pretty good but your panels need to be absalutely clean of any silicone or other Aurmorall like contaminant, I used laquer thinner, acetone, or brake cleaner on them to get them spotless before usining the plastic prep SEMS sells, then the dye. Seems harsh but it works for me.

As far as repairing cracks I'd suggest welding with Polyethylene rods, nothing else will work as well. If you don't feel comfortable doing such repairs contact Just Dashes, they can do it. Also a good option is having Just Dashes re-skin your original panels with an ultra thin layer of new vinyl. This puts a perfect new surface on them but the grain is not exact, you will need to get ALL of your interior panels done so it all looks right, seat backs, door panels, rear panels, kick panels, etc. (Expensive, figure $1,500.00 for the works in any color). You may also see a slight fit issue at the rear edges of the doors as the new panels are now "bigger" "longer" etc. by the amount of the vinyl wrapped over them. It's a small issue typically but be aware of it, especially at the rear edges of the doors. This is the option I'd take if I could not find good originals.

Good luck.
Scott

ChallengerDays · « **Reply #9 on:** December 21, 2006 - 07:43:57 AM »

Thanks Scoot! Thanks guys!

Not to put down any suppliers out there, but are those reproduction door panels really that bad�bad enough to want to spend $1,500.00 to have original door panels re-skined vice spending $403.00 from Year One and putting up with the hard plastic?

Thank God the finish on my panels is in excellent shape. Knowing what I know now, I guess I�d be a fool to swap them out with repos.

Now, the one thing I need to do is fix is the crack. Does anyone have experience welding with Polyethylene rods? Can you give me any pointers or tell me about your experience using this process to fix your door panels? How successful were you and how did they turn out? Thanks!

Green Drop Top · « **Reply #10 on:** December 21, 2006 - 08:16:29 AM »

Yes the panels are "That Bad" In my opinion, skip the repro's. On welding, inexpensive plastic welders can be purchased on ebay, but quality definately varies with price, good ones cost thousands, cheap ones are under $100.00. If you only have a couple small repairs to do a cheap on will work. I suggest getting a spare junker kick panel, etc. and practicing before tackeling your door. You can handle it.

jeryst · « **Reply #11 on:** December 21, 2006 - 08:35:58 AM »

I think this is an excellent idea. I have been searching for something like this for a long time. Not only would it act as a source directory for suppliers, it would let us know problems (or lack of) that we could expect. We could expand it a little further, and rate the vendors themselves, in terms of customer service, support, etc. It would be nice to know, for example, that a certain vendor markets a great product, but they're slow, so expect to wait extra time. That would certainly reduce anxiety on high price items like dashpads, etc.

I think we are all faced with the same problems when buying a part: 1. Where can we get the part, 2. What is the quality/issues, 3. Who has the best price for similar quality. This would help us obtain better quality parts at the lowest prices. It would be free advertising for the good vendors, and help us weed out the bad ones, maybe even force them to clean up their act. As usual, the idea will get support from the good vendors, and flak from the not so good ones. The highly rated vendors may also decide to give us a club discount, in return for sending more business their way, so we all make out.

ChallengerDays · « **Reply #12 on:** December 21, 2006 - 09:28:28 AM »

I totally agree with you jeryst.

You brought up some excellent points.

So, what do you think Rev-It-Up? Would it be possible to startup a new topic on the home page �Mopar Parts Report� so we can all be informed about all these new after market and reproduction Mopar parts and the service that�s provided by these suppliers? It could have a rating for the parts and service, a pricing or buyers guide, product reviews, and consumer information from experts like you.

Green Drop Top · « **Reply #13 on:** December 21, 2006 - 09:51:38 AM »

From a suppliers perspective (mine) I'd like to add something else.

If such a forum is created I would suggest leaving pricing and discounts out of the scenario. If the true purpose of this forum would be to report on part quality and sources for reproduction parts & services I believe the quality of the parts & services should be judged on it's own merits, same for customer service. Leaving pricing and discounts out of the picture will greatly simplify things. Once people learn what sources carry certain parts and of what quality level they can shop around for pricing very easily.

"In todays world you can have The best quality, The best price & The best service, pick any two you like, because it's unlikely you'll get all three"

jeryst · « **Reply #14 on:** December 21, 2006 - 10:29:19 AM »

Quote from: Harms inc. on December 21, 2006 - 09:51:38 AM

From a suppliers perspective (mine) I'd like to add something else.

If such a forum is created I would suggest leaving pricing and discounts out of the scenario. If the true purpose of this forum would be to report on part quality and sources for reproduction parts & services I believe the quality of the parts & services should be judged on it's own merits, same for customer service. Leaving pricing and discounts out of the picture will greatly simplify things. Once people learn what sources carry certain parts and of what quality level they can shop around for pricing very easily.

"In todays world you can have The best quality, The best price & The best service, pick any two you like, because it's unlikely you'll get all three"

I agree. Prices can fluctuate, and if a review is out there for some length of time, an old price could easily be mistaken as a current price. Once we have a convenient list of the best quality parts and vendors we can easily shop around for price.

Author Topic: Reproduction Parts Post Idea (Read 4718 times)

ChallengerDays

Reproduction Parts Post Idea

Lunchbox

Re: Reproduction Parts Post Idea

Green Drop Top

Re: Reproduction Parts Post Idea

ChallengerDays

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Green Drop Top

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BIGSHCLUNK

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ChallengerDays

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MEK-Dangerfield

Re: Reproduction Parts Post Idea

Green Drop Top

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ChallengerDays

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Green Drop Top

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jeryst

Re: Reproduction Parts Post Idea

ChallengerDays

Re: Reproduction Parts Post Idea

Green Drop Top

Re: Reproduction Parts Post Idea

jeryst

Re: Reproduction Parts Post Idea