Author Topic: Front suspension option?  (Read 3675 times)

Offline Hopalong

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Front suspension option?
« on: March 19, 2007 - 01:53:48 PM »
Ok, I was watching a rerun of Muslcecar the other day where Lou was custom building a front suspension for a mustang.  He was useing a mustang 2 hot rod kit, much like the one shown here:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/pl/900-949+3RD,910-34202_L.jpg,362,2089_Mustang-II-Tubular-Control-Arm-Independent-Front-Suspension-Kits.html

My thought was this, why couldn't this be done to a Cuda or Challenger?  It is pretty much what the AlterKation kit is, just not in bolt on form.  What do you think?  Pros, cons?
{oo/===\oo}




Offline 360 'CUDA

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Re: Front suspension option?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2007 - 02:18:45 PM »
Because it's junk?


Just remember, anything that has the word Mustang II in it is trying to hide the real words "Pinto spindles"

Offline HP2

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Re: Front suspension option?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2007 - 02:31:47 PM »
I can't get the link to work to view the  parts, but....anything is possible. Ultimately it all comes down to goals, ability, and money. To put it in simpler terms; you either pay for the knowledge, buy the kit, and install it, or you take the time to learn all the intricacies and interdependancies of suspension design and fabricate you own. If you can rattle off the impact that anti-dive will have on caster gain, or understand how the roll center placement will change the moment lever arm layout, then you've got a good start.

For that matter, what is prevent someone from retrofitting Nascar spec parts to a mopar and creating a coil spring and truck arm system? Only time, money and desire.

What is the goal, what is the budget, what are the rules (if any)? Combine that with what do you know, how good are your skills, and how much time do you have? Answer those questions honestly and you can come up with an answer pretty quickley. For some of us, dumping $3k into a pre-fabbed suspension is well worth the money, time and effort. For some of us, $3k is a hella lotta money that can be spent on other systems. Some of us can make the stock stuff run better than a pre-fabed unit or a custom built install and do it for under a grand. The point is each situation is differnt and dependant upon our own particular circumstances.

Me, I'm jsut waiting for someone to tool up for some decent forged 2" drop spindles for Mopars that are under $300 a pair.

Offline willhaven

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Re: Front suspension option?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2007 - 02:38:19 PM »
Doesn't the Reilly Alterktion come with Mustang II spindles?

Offline Hopalong

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Re: Front suspension option?
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2007 - 03:49:32 PM »
Doesn't the Reilly Alterktion come with Mustang II spindles?

That's what I thought too.  Honestly, a lot of the AlterKation stuff looks alot loke this kit.  I am not trying to bash AlterKation in any way, I just got to looking at them both and did a little comparing.
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Offline go-fish

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Re: Front suspension option?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2007 - 06:47:59 PM »
Don't confuse MII "style" spindles with Pinto spindles. RMS doesn't go digging through boneyards to get the kit parts. He uses a MII style Flaming River  rack and pinion, do you supose Flaming River goes to boneyards to get MII racks and repackages them?
Since the spindles are based on a Mustang II style spindle(not OEM MII, these have a stronger forge)  you can use all brakes for MII's. There are alot of people that say the MII spindles are good for no more than Street Rod style front ends.
This is very much true as an original equipment piece, an OE cast MII spindle can crack and fail when abused. Since people have been pushing the limits of automotive machines with borrowed parts from other cars, those parts have eventually been recognized as the "hot thing" and the aftermearkets will quickly take that part and refine/redesign it for sale to the public.
This has been what drives the street rod aftermarket. Look at the companies that are producing parts that are basically copies, like Jag IRS, Corvette IRS, Corvette small style brake boosters, and the ever popular MII spindle. When they get ahold of these parts they are obligated to redesign them to give them selling points over junkyard pieces. Why would you buy a Fatman IRS over a junkyard Jag IRS? Because, while being the same concept, it's improved in some way and shape.
Why, there are more MII spindles out there than what came out of the assembly plant.
I can't see this issue with people thinking Alter-k-tion is so far inferior because it uses MII spindles when in all actuality, these MII style spindles are FAR stronger than a newer Corvette's alluminum spindles.
Also, the similarity between the aftermarket and OEM ends at spindle height, front steering, and rotor shaft diameter. Those are not the attributes that make OEM MII spindles weak.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007 - 06:54:51 PM by go-fish »

Offline 360 'CUDA

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Re: Front suspension option?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2007 - 07:27:56 PM »
I know what you are saying is true and I know the junkyards have all dried up for this stuff long ago but putting this stuff in a MOPAR makes about as much sense as putting a 538 HEMI in a Fox bodied Mustang.

I don't want to be insulting to all the folks using these aftermarket systems but I thought we were building MOPARs around here  :dunno:

« Last Edit: March 19, 2007 - 11:42:33 PM by 360cuda »

Offline willhaven

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Re: Front suspension option?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2007 - 08:16:21 PM »
If those new systems allow more modern brake and wheel choices, I'm all for it.

I'd be happy to throw out the original K frame and leaf springs and have a custom setup with improved performance. :working:

Offline go-fish

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Re: Front suspension option?
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2007 - 09:12:44 PM »
I thought we were building MOPARs around here  :dunno:



Okay, so my 'cuda is less of a Mopar for using a spindle that isn't even OEM Ford but has certain aspects that a OEM piece has?
So my hydroboost unit makes the car some kind of diesel knock off because the units are derived from the big smokers.
How bout people with Kiesler trannies, those same 5 speeds are used by OEM's other than Ma' Mopar.
I use a Dana styled S-60 rear end but are you going to tell all the people that buy a Currie built 9" or Moser 9" that thier car is a poser of some type.
It's just that I bleed Mopar as much as any other person, I am a Mopar (and VW TDI) or no car kinda guy, but that does not make me too good to use AFTERMARKET parts that improve performance.
I know you meant no insult but it is still a wee bit shallow and ignorant. And I don't mean insult by that statement. I mean ignorant as in the litteral Webster's definition. No offense.
Oh, 360, is that HillRod for your avatar? I just threw up a little :puke:
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007 - 09:16:34 PM by go-fish »

Offline matt63

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Re: Front suspension option?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2007 - 09:27:56 PM »
I'm lost on the Mustang II reference.  ???  I'm no sports suspension expert here but since when is/was the Mustang II a desirable car or the "standard" in steering and suspension.  Isn't it 30 years old now? To me it's kind of like saying we are going to fit a K-car front end onto my 'Cuda.  Now if they said they were going to retrofit Viper/Vette parts I could understand. 
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD

Offline 6packCuda

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Re: Front suspension option?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2007 - 09:33:11 PM »
I can't get the link to work to view the  parts, but....anything is possible. Ultimately it all comes down to goals, ability, and money. To put it in simpler terms; you either pay for the knowledge, buy the kit, and install it, or you take the time to learn all the intricacies and interdependancies of suspension design and fabricate you own. If you can rattle off the impact that anti-dive will have on caster gain, or understand how the roll center placement will change the moment lever arm layout, then you've got a good start.

For that matter, what is prevent someone from retrofitting Nascar spec parts to a mopar and creating a coil spring and truck arm system? Only time, money and desire.

What is the goal, what is the budget, what are the rules (if any)? Combine that with what do you know, how good are your skills, and how much time do you have? Answer those questions honestly and you can come up with an answer pretty quickley. For some of us, dumping $3k into a pre-fabbed suspension is well worth the money, time and effort. For some of us, $3k is a hella lotta money that can be spent on other systems. Some of us can make the stock stuff run better than a pre-fabed unit or a custom built install and do it for under a grand. The point is each situation is differnt and dependant upon our own particular circumstances.

Me, I'm jsut waiting for someone to tool up for some decent forged 2" drop spindles for Mopars that are under $300 a pair.

Can you share with us beginners some tips on how to make the stock stuff handle better than the pre-fabbed units? Or is that top secret stuff?
Dave

Offline 360 'CUDA

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Re: Front suspension option?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2007 - 09:42:26 PM »
Okay, so my 'cuda is less of a Mopar for using a spindle that isn't even OEM Ford but has certain aspects that a OEM piece has?
So my hydroboost unit makes the car some kind of diesel knock off because the units are derived from the big smokers.
How bout people with Kiesler trannies, those same 5 speeds are used by OEM's other than Ma' Mopar.
I use a Dana styled S-60 rear end but are you going to tell all the people that buy a Currie built 9" or Moser 9" that thier car is a poser of some type.
It's just that I bleed Mopar as much as any other person, I am a Mopar (and VW TDI) or no car kinda guy, but that does not make me too good to use AFTERMARKET parts that improve performance.

Yes... That's what I'm saying

Offline 360 'CUDA

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Re: Front suspension option?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2007 - 10:02:44 PM »
I know you meant no insult but it is still a wee bit shallow and ignorant. And I don't mean insult by that statement. I mean ignorant as in the litteral Webster's definition. No offense.
Oh, 360, is that HillRod for your avatar? I just threw up a little :puke:

Not just Hillrod but the next President of the ,,,, Nah, I can't go through with it..

Haven't you ever seen the Green Brick?  That's the Mopar Action car that uses stock MOPAR parts to slay Lambos and Vettes.  (I know some of those MOPAR parts are off a VIPER)

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just saying that these aftermarket systems need to be tweeked and tuned to get them to perform so you might as well just tweek and tune the MOPAR stuff.
I have yet to see any real G-numbers on these aftermarket cars. Just some lame footage and promises on that DreemKar show.  You know, that's the one that crowned the best Musclecar a Buick, Or was it an Oldsmobile??? Those are the guys that showed up to the race in a HEMI Challenger with a burnt out clutch.

Yeah, I really trust those guys

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Front suspension option?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2007 - 10:19:35 PM »
the Mustang II started as a very easily interchanged front end unit , there have been a ton of parts to support the Mustang II spindle system.... not saying that it is nessisarily good or bad but they are used a lot , my question / problem is the coil over spring , the Mopar chassis is not designed to take the load where the coil over puts it , I still feel the T bar is as good as it is as adjustable as the coilover & puts the weigth in the middle of the car low down , simplely the best place to have the weight , just looking at the green brick will illustrate how well the factory suspension can work with some tweaking   

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline go-fish

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Re: Front suspension option?
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2007 - 12:01:04 AM »
The torsion bar system is a design that has been proven, it's great. For the wife's Dart we are going to follow the Green Brick's principles. I look forward to the car going up against the 'cuda with the Alter-K. It is my own personal experiment, I have loved the Green Brick from day one and I love the ideas the RMS has brought to my hobby.
I guess I might have to write the Dept. of Motor Vehicles and see if they can change the title of the 'cuda to "Plymford cud-stang II".
I would hate to cast a name out there like "Purist" because in my eye it isn't a compliment. I just don't subscribe to the idea that if it isn't stamped with a Pentastar then it isn't worth putting on the car. Do you use a Mopar brand oil filter too? Do you know it is the worst filter you can buy? There are things out there that are good ideas that non-mopar people have came up with and it isn't bad to borrow them.
You don't have to like it or want to go and put a 5 speed in your ride but DAM*, you don't have to be closed minded and a "Pur!$t".
In the end you're not going to prove anything until you get out there and race a similarly equipped car that has these "new fangled" kits on them. Even then you're going to have to document it because people like me won't believe you if you claimed to have beat them.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2007 - 12:06:16 AM by go-fish »