Big Block 400 Stroker Build!!

[PlumCraZRT]

I'll say this... i know performance and reliability don't always go hand-in-hand, but I'm getting sad that the displacement keeps going down in-turn to make this engine more reliable.  The response to that is probably that I could go bigger, but I might have issues at some point; it is what it is.  I kinda realized the manifolds are a bottle neck and I know Chryco doesnt seem to think the Schumachers would help much, but I don't see myself going with full length headers... too many headaches in too many different forms.  I've thrown a whole bunch of combos at you guys (and I hope I'm not bugging you or making you feel obligated to help me) but you guys have been awesome in (positively) critiqueing them and letting me know what issues you have... moving on:

I have given the rod ratio thing a bit more concern and wonder what kind of wear difference/issues one can expect going with a 1.66 rod ratio (of the 470) compared to the 1.80 rod (of the 451).  I've started looking at 451s a bit more.  I was hesitant at first because I feel that at some point if the engine gets so close to a 383 in performance it kind of defeats the whole purpose.  I figured go as big as possible and get a mild cam so I can get gobs of tire roasting torque down low where I can use it with my current setup, (hemi built 727 with ~2500 stall and 3.23 rear - very streetable, highway friendly setup).  451 plan seems pretty good though, if we all feel performance will still be miles ahead of my 383.  New plan as dictated by Chryco's need for more compression and Moper's need for increased rod ratio:

440source 451 stroker kit with -4 cc flat top pistons
bore engine .035 over (to 4.375)
deck engine .025" (to zero deck it)
4.380" bore, .040" compressed thickness head gasket - can use basically any off-the-shelf head gasket
Edelbrock heads with 84 cc combustion chambers


This combination will yield a static compression ratio ~10.44:1 and a rod ratio of 1.80.  Any clues what kind of power/torque one might see with this combo and a high-lift short(er) duration cam?  (Quickly glanced at Comp and saw the XE275HL and XE285HL)  Thanks again for the help, its definitely NOT going unappreciated.

Oh yea, and what does IIRC mean?

[Chryco Psycho]

the 451 will nto be disapointing , the 451 is larger than the 440 & 7 lbs lighter in rotating mass , it will make a lot of power & rev better then the 440 , the 451 will nto even resemble the 383

[PlumCraZRT]

Glad to hear that Chryco... puts a big smile on my face (literally) ->

You see any issues with that combination/machine work, Chryco?  Moper?

[Chryco Psycho]

looks like a good package to me
73Estroker is building a 451 right now , we should have dyno results in a couple of months

[PlumCraZRT]

Sweet... is he going all out on his build? Or is he kinda in the same boat as me... trying to go the "very streetable" route?  Anxious to see the results!!  He use the 440source kit?

[422STROKER]

Oh yea, and what does IIRC mean?

It looks like a nice combo you have.

IIRC---If I Recall Correctly----IIRC  or something like that..


Tom

[70RAGTOPR/T]

Plumcraz-  Listen to the wise men, I'm doing the same thing you are doing but I'm using a 383.  It was suggested that I use a 400 but I have 2 383 blocks and I want to keep the car looking original as much as possible.  I have a plum crazy 70 ragtop.  I asked about going larger but they suggested that I go smaller.  I building a 438 stroker.  CP and Mopar gave me very good info.  I plan to order my kit next week.  Tax refund is great.   Good luck on your build.  I have added my topic below.

440source.

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=30690.0

[PlumCraZRT]

Plumcraz-  Listen to the wise men, I'm doing the same thing you are doing but I'm using a 383.  It was suggested that I use a 400 but I have 2 383 blocks and I want to keep the car looking original as much as possible.  I have a plum crazy 70 ragtop.  I asked about going larger but they suggested that I go smaller.  I building a 438 stroker.  CP and Mopar gave me very good info.  I plan to order my kit next week.  Tax refund is great.   Good luck on your build.  I have added my topic below.

440source.

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=30690.0

Same to you.  Hope everything works out well for you.  I actually just downloaded Desktop Dyno 2000 and have put in the specs of my current 383 build and my future 451 build.  If the software is at all accurate I can expect somewhere from a 100hp to 150 hp increase with about 100 ft-lbs of torque increase across the board.  Regardless of how (in)accurate the software is, I'm sure it's not TERRIBLY far off and I can probably expect performance gains somewhere in that range.  It makes me happy thinking about it.   Told my buddies about it (remember I'm only 23) and I think they're as stoked about the whole project as I am. The software shows ~400 hp with "HP Manifolds and Headers" to ~450 hp with "Small-Tube Headers with Mufflers".  Figure I'll probably be somewhere in the middle.  It does only show my 383 build as having ~315 hp with stock heads and hp manifolds, so I figure its probably not TOO far off.  Saw the mopar muscle build where they get the true 335 hp from the "stock" buld of a 383, but they use better stuff than my engine has.  Might be worth the difference.

Ragtop, let me know how your build goes... Sounds really sweet.  Also, I (think I) can send the Desktop Dyno software to anyone if they want it.  I downloaded it as a zip file, but I'm not sure if it's too big to email.  Send me a message if youre interested.

[PlumCraZRT]

Hey Chryco,
Had the Good Guys show here in Pleasanton today and was looking through the swap meet and figured I should keep an eye out for any parts for the stroker... low and behold I found the Weiand Action+ (the dual plane, PN 8008) that you had suggested before.  Got it for $100 in almost brand new condition.  Basically I need to just wash/wipe some dirt off of it, but the intake goes for $175+ at Summit, so I think I did well...  The intake find kept a smile on my face all day long.  Now I'm keeping an eye out for the heads...  Hopefully tomorrow I can start ripping the old 400 apart and take out the old pistons/crank/rods and get them sold on Craigslist.  After that, it's off to the machine shop to get the block hot tanked so it'll be all clean till I'm really ready to get around to the motor.

[Chryco Psycho]

Good score

[moper]

Plum, Looks decent to me. Cam choice will really be the key. With manifolds, like CP said, you will be building cylinder pressure because the exh valve will be closing quickly with little or no overlap. So the quench and static ratio will be real important to stay below detonation threshold on pump fuel. The 4cc is a flat top design, so you can get it close to the heads for good quench. As for cam sizing, you will want to be careful. You are basically building a 440, so it isnt real hrad to over cam it. It will feel lightyears ahead of the 383, but will be effected more by larger cam profiles than a 470 or 500" will.

Oh, and it  "If I Recall Correctly"...lol. Menas I think i remember it this way...but I could be wrong..."

[v8440]

Something to keep in mind:  Purely from a power standpoint (ignoring whatever additional wear a lower rod/stroke ratio may cause), a lower rod/stroke ratio produces a bigger performance hit when the induction system (read: heads) is restrictive.  In other words, a poor rod/stroke ratio matters much more on an engine with poor-flowing heads/intake than it does on a motor with plenty of head, a big manifold/carb, etc.  I think this is due to the piston dwelling longer at BDC with a longer rod, allowing an inadequate intake system a little more time to fill the cylinders during the intake stroke.  Regardless of why, there has been some dyno testing that backs this up.  Something to keep in mind when selecting cylinder heads and such.

I personally am taking almost the exact opposite approach to building my 517.  I'm essentially saying "to hell with rod/stroke ratio, I want displacement".  I'm convinced that the extra cubic inches in my case will pay off in the form of more power, despite the poor rod/stroke ratio.  I'm not exactly going to be choking it off with small heads, which has a lot to do with my decision to assign r/s ratio less importance.  Mine is going to be a 4.300" stroke in a b motor with big block chevy rod journals, a seriously short piston, and longer than stock chevy rods.  I forget exactly what length they are, but suffice to say that they won't produce the r/s ratios that us mopar people are used to seeing.  It'll be alright though-there are plenty of engines (not necessarily mopar) making plenty good power with poorer r/s ratios than what we're used to.  Don't take this as an argument in favor of you throwing caution to the wind-you expect your motor to last longer between rebuilds than I expect the 517 to.  We're building for different purposes-I just wanted you to be aware of the relationship between intake flow vs r/s ratio.

[73EStroker]

PlumcraZRT - this is the list of what I am building.
400 low deck 230 casting block bored to 4.380", 68 440 4spd steel crank, Eagle H Beam 6.76" rods, Ross stroker pistons with dish machined for 10.25 CR, ARP main studs, floating .990 pins, Lunati 0.586 solid cam 110 deg CL 256@50 duration, Aussie roller chain and gears, 0 deckd block, Cometic 040 gaskets, Indy EZ heads, Crane adjustable rockers, Holley Street Dominator manifold, Proform 950 carb, full length headers, SFI flywheel, Fluid damper. The other stuff is comestic. Anyway all of the machining and the motor complete fan to clutch will be in the neighbourhood of $13K CDN. This motor is designed for the odd rip up the strip even though the car will be set up for road type racing. It should still hold it's own on the 1320. A833OD and Dana Ford truck rear 3.73 SG converted to a Challenger setup. As CP said we should be able to post some DYNO results mid to late May. This setup gives a 451 + 040 overbore whatever that comes to total. We are aiming for 7000RPM capability when it is needed. Power band with the cam should be 2200 - 6500.

I believe you would do well with a simi,lar setup as there is a 68 Dart drag car around in BC that does high 10s with a carburetted 451 in it. That is 140MPH approx through the traps.

Good Luck with your build wherever you go with it.

[PlumCraZRT]

The .035 over is what gets you to a 451, your .040 over will give you an amazing 452!! 

[PlumCraZRT]

Oh, and one more thing... everyone is talking cams at this point.  I've been looking at these two: Comp Cams XE275HL and XE285HL.  Figure they got lots of lift for hi-RPM pleasure, but small enough over-lap to make a nice easy idle, and hopefully enough overlap that detonation won't be an issue.  I figure with the .040 between the heads and the flat-top pistons the quench should be great and the comp ratio will be ~10.4:1 with aluminum heads.  Maybe go with the bigger of the two if we are worried that the aluminum heads and quench wont be enough to prevent detonation.