Big Block 400 Stroker Build!!

[moper]

I figure you're thinking right...

[PlumCraZRT]

Started ripping apart my engine which is making me start to wonder where I will get it machined.  I live in Pleasanton (East Bay of San Francisco Bay Area) and was curious if anybody had any places they recommend.  We have worked with Elby's Machine Shop and Diablo Engine and Machine Shop, both located in Dublin.  I think my dad disagrees somewhat, but my opinion of Elby's is that they try hard to do well on your engine, but to me it sometimes seems like their knowledge (and judgement) is lacking.  (We have already had Elby's do two 383s for us) And on the otherside of things, Diablo appears to know a lot about the engines (and im sure they do cause they must get most of the business around here), but they have also been described as a "factory line" and that they don't care too much about each individual engine.  I guess im lookin for an engine shop with lots of experience (perhaps of mopar racing engine pedigree) that will still look at each engine on an individual basis and hopefully won't cost too much either.  I know, it sounds like a dream...  Anyway, my only concerns with lack of non-standard engine building experience is that this isn't a stock engine, it's going to be an engine that has custom internals that require attention to detail (I'm actually pretty worried about people's experiences with 440sources bearings, etc).  Can anyone help me?!   

[73EStroker]

PlumcraZRT - somewhere in this thread you mentioned 84cc heads from Edelbrock. I stand corrected if I am wrong, but these are the same chambers as the stock Mopar heads are they not? If that is the case you won't get the quench chambers unless you go with the small chamber head from Eddy. Then you have to take a pile of metal out of the top of the piston - start thinking "custom piston" $$$$$$$$$$$$ not off the shelf. I had to pay Muscle Motors and extra $200 for my "custom" pistons to work with the Indy EZ heads at 10.25:1. 

[moper]

73, the 84cc RPM heads are the closed chamber ones. The 88cc are the .040 deep "open" types. When  startinga  build from a block, knowing the heads will be bought new, never use the 88cc versions.

[PlumCraZRT]

Anyone have any ideas on what max lift can be used with the stock rockers/shafts?  Do Edelbrock heads neccessitate the use of aftermarket rocker setups?  Those are $$$.   I would like to use the stock setup if possible, but im concerned about making too much lift and about aftermarket heads.

[moper]

You need to make sure the geometry is correct, the pushrod length will be critical, and the lifer preload needs to be right. You can use factory stuff, I have to over .530 lift with no stability issues over 6K. But with more modern grinds and ramps, and the springs they require, you will find the shafts begin to deform and the rockers flex. the bigger the engien, the bigger the cam needed. If it were me, I would use the sintered iron rocker setups from Crane or Isky long before stamped steel. They are about $100 less than aluminum rollers, and more stable. Plus, the ability to set lash and use teh adjuster screws means an easier time  makign up for tolerance differences that lead one to run say, 3 different pushrod lengths in the same engine to get the right preload..lol.

[PlumCraZRT]

Thanks Moper...

I will likely be running a cam with either .525 or .545 and a respective 231 or 241 duration @ .050.  Those are pretty high lift numbers with a pretty quick ramp.  I guess I should be able to get adjustable rockers with stock rods and get the correct preload.  I am fairly certain the Edelbrock heads are the stock height (ie stock pushrods/rockers would work fine) but I will be decking the block .025" so that might mess up the preload with the stock rocker/rods setup.  Plus, like you said the force generated at those lift numbers might not be too great on the stamped rockers.  Don't want to spend $300 on a rocker setup (and i do't really want to have to think about adjustment either), but it looks like a neccessary evil and it will likely (and hopefully) lead to peace of mind in the future.

[moper]

Well, the cranes on my car got adjusted a couple years ago...and they went 4 yeas before that. I dont drive it much, but if everything is stable, and set right, you dont have to set lash over and over. Maybe once a year.

[PlumCraZRT]

How do roller rockers compare to non-roller adjustable type.  I am trying to compare between comp's pro-magnum (comp's basic steel roller rocker for chrysler) and crane's ductile steel adjustable (non-roller) rocker.  It appears the comp rockers should be strong enough for my .525 lift (going with Comp's XE275HL cam) but I am not sure which are supposed to last longer, roller or non roller rockers.  I think I could save $100 goin with Crane, even after getting the special pushrods.  Also do the Crane ductile steel rockers work with factory spacers etc?  I haven't seen anything indicating the use of special spacers or anything.

[Chryco Psycho]

I use a lot of the Crane Ductile rockers , they are indestructable , the only down side is they tend to push the valve sideways a little which will wear the guide a bit faster , they do use stock spacers/ holdowns

[PlumCraZRT]

Got another question for ya...

Do the 440source stroker kits come with the piston wrist pins?  The sorta suggest they do if you buy the "ready to go" $1500 kit, but they really don't mention the wrist pins otherwise.  I assumed they do come with the kits.

Also, I have put together a list of all the parts I am going to need to use/buy for my stroker project.  In case you're curious my total is coming to about $7100 after machining but without (the Schumacher $500) headers.  I have pretty darn complete bill that I was gonna attach, but I see I can't.  I left out some really inexpensive stuff that I either have left lying around or really don't bother adding due to negligable cost.  The major expenses (+$100 expenses) are the Edelbrock heads ($1389), total machining costs (~$2275), 440source Al water pump and housing ($109), carburetor (~$400), Crane rocker arm assy ($300), Comp cam shaft SK kit ($267), 440source rotating assy ($1199), rings ($165), damper ($130), and coated bearings ($330 total).  Notice any other huge expenses missing?  Maybe my time/social life?   

Thanks,
Evan

[Chryco Psycho]

yes the 440 Source kits come with pins

 you will need custom pushrods & a double roller timing chain
 not sure why you are chosing to go with Schumaker headers , they are expensive for what you get , I assume this is not going into an A body?
 I may be able to get you a deal on the headers if you really want them as 1 of my customers replaced his with TTi last fall   

[moper]

Evan..it's better to just wait until it's running to look at how much it costs...lol When one saves every scrap, and accounts fro evything, most people have more than they like to report on..lol.

[PlumCraZRT]

yes the 440 Source kits come with pins

 you will need custom pushrods & a double roller timing chain
 not sure why you are chosing to go with Schumaker headers , they are expensive for what you get , I assume this is not going into an A body?
 I may be able to get you a deal on the headers if you really want them as 1 of my customers replaced his with TTi last fall   

Yea... I know they aren't the ideal for performance, but I think I can deal with the shorty headers a lot better than I can deal with full-length.  Full length sound sweet performance wise, but having stuff burnin up and having them scraping on speed bumps etc is something I would rather just not deal with, especially for a (somewhat) daily driver.  The Schumachers look to be really out of the way and I they have to be a lot less restrictive than the stock manifolds.  It really come down to the headers being the best compromise between performance and convenience.  I don't know if you have seen this article either...

http://www.engine-swaps.com/Header_Performance_2002/

They find a performance difference of about 15 hp on a 490 rwhp car... I haven't looked too closely into the calculations etc they use, but I assume them to be honest.  But in all honesty, as much as it pains me to say it, I think I would be willing to take a pretty drastic horsepower hit to make my car a much better daily driver.

Oh, and moper, about the total...  I know it'll be expensive.  I actually was tryin to figure costs so I would know that I have the money to finish the project when I determine I'm ready to dive head first into it.   I don't wanna be one of those people on craigslist with an engine selling for $500 that apparently had $7000 put into cause they need the money quick.  I prefer to make sure my investments will last me.     I am just outta college and I already have a (sizeable) car payment I hope to pay off in the next half year... maybe even faster.  Basically all my cash goes toward the new car (nice daily driver commute car), then toward the 40 year old one (weekend cheby and ford eater).     Are my priorities wrong or what?

[moper]

Priorities sound dead on to me...lol. I drive a Neon every day...