Author Topic: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.  (Read 10645 times)

Offline willhaven

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Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« on: March 28, 2007 - 07:41:51 PM »
I'm not too well versed in the gearing of these cars. The larger you go (like a bike) the easier the wheels are to spin but the less top end you get for your given RPM level. Right?

What would make a good all around gear for a 440 4bbl E body with a 727 automatic?

I prefer quick acceleration, but I'd also like something that could cruise around 65-70mph without running the RPMs too high.

Also to be noted, I'd eventually get fairly large wheels (nearly 28" tall or thereabouts), and a 5 speed Keisler transmission swap could be in the future of the vehicle as well.

Feedback would be appreciated. :feedback:




Offline willhaven

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Re: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2007 - 07:58:30 PM »
Also, what cam would you guys go with? It's a 4bbl car.

Offline Moparal

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Re: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2007 - 08:01:11 PM »
I'd say 355 gears the cam is more specific to intake carb and valve springs and or headers and stall :2thumbs:

Offline Oldschool

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Re: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2007 - 08:04:59 PM »
Since you state that you prefer quick acceleration, (I assume at the expense of a little fuel mileage reduction) then I suggest 3:91.  That is a great gear for aceleration, while not totally killing mileage.  Since you might go with a 5 speed later, then 3:91 would be for me.  I run 4:10 in my 528 Hemi, but I run 31" tires.  I cruise at 60 mph around 2500 rpm.  It runs great for what I do, and has tremendous acceleration.  If some of my cruises were not 40 miles away by interstate, I would run 4:56 in it, just for more acceleration.  (You just can't have TOO MUCH giddy-up). I will tell you now that I am more the racer than most on here and you will get a lot of 3:73, 3:54 and 3:23 suggestions.  Those are good gears, but they won't git it from a dig like 3:91 or 4:10.  It depends on what you want to do more than anything else........    :2cents:     :burnout:     :cooldancing:      
Ken  --  In Georgia

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Offline willhaven

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Re: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2007 - 08:11:02 PM »
I'd say the chances of me doing many long hauls in the car are fairly slim. I mostly go 10 miles here and 10 miles back, maybe 20 at most. Nothing too far.

With a 5 speed, the overdrive gear would probably compensate fairly well for any radical rear end don't you think?

Offline willhaven

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Re: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2007 - 08:15:41 PM »
I just checked the Keisler calculator. Apparently at 2000rpm with 3.91 I'd be at 44mph with the standard transmission and 66mph with the Keisler (with 27.9" tires).

That wouldn't be bad at all!

Thanks for the input. The car I'm looking at has 3.91s.

Offline Carlwalski

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Re: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2007 - 08:19:06 PM »


As is 3.55 would be ideal IMO. If I were you I'd consider an OD (NOT Gear Vendors).
If you have the money a Keisler or a A518 would be the way to go. Run 4:10's and cruise like 3.23.

Low gears (higher numerically) = better take off, high rpm in final gear.
High gears (lower numerically) = Slower take off, lower rpm in final gear.

Depends on your set up as well. Lower gears doesn't always mean faster.
A 4.10 car may light the rear tyres up everytime where as a 3.73 car would hook and pull.


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Offline v8440

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Re: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2007 - 09:04:40 PM »
Yep-I'll second that.  Spinning the tires whilst the other guy hooks and leaves is a really good, spectacular way to lose a race.  Consider also that engines with heavy internals (ahem!  440) don't like to rev too quickly, as it takes power to speed the engine's internals up.  Putting too much gear in a car with such an engine requires the engine itself to accelerate its parts faster than if you went with a numerically-lower gear, which actually does decrease the power available at the wheels.  The power required to speed up rotating parts does not come from nowhere.  So, you may well actually accelerate faster with less gear, in real life.  Prime example:  I had a 440 in a duster, and it had light ross pistons.  I took a set of 3.91's out and put a set of 4.56's in.  The car immediately slowed down 2 mph and 2 tenths in both the 1/4 and the 1/8th.  Putting the 3.91's in again got it all back.  EXCELLENT way to impress your friends with your tire spinning ability while slowing your car down.  And to think, that was with light pistons.  It would have been even worse with heavy stock pistons!

Offline Oldschool

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Re: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2007 - 09:28:49 PM »
You guys that installed a numericaly higher ratio and slowed down had other issues coming into play also.  It wasn't just the gear change that caused the problem. IF you have the powerplant that can support the higher gear, then the car WILL go faster, up to a point.  What I mean is if you have a powerplant that has max rpm at 5500 rpm and try and run 5:38 gear, you will run out of motor well before the end of the 1/4 mile.
Back to the point.  If the motor will match the gear, then you will pick up ET.  If you install a 4:56 in the place of a 3:91 and slow down, you need to look elsewhere for the problem. Since gears are torque multipliers, and the rear tires are getting more power delivered to them, then you have tire and chassis issues to upgrade along with the gear upgrade.  If you run sticky DR's on a modded 440 car with a 3:54 gear and then install a 4:10 gear with no other changes, you will go quicker. See it becomes a traction issue, not a gearing issue.  If you are spinning with the higher gear, then fix the spinning and you will go faster than the lower gear.  There is more to quick ET's than just horsepower and gears.  There is a lot of chassis set-up, shock changes for quick weight transfer, sticky tires, and driver adjustments for the new set up. Ever wonder why drag cars run steep gears?  It's because they have the rest of the combo sorted out to get what the steep gears have to offer.
The glaring exception to this is Top Fuel cars.  They run 3:08 to 3:23 gears and REAL tall tires with 2 speed trannys.  It's not uncommon for the fuelers to run a 1 - 1  ratio first gear and a 2 - 1 overdrive second gear in the tranny's.  But when you are relatively light and have 8000 horsepower to get you down the track, you don't need any gear to help out.    :burnout:    :2cents:    :cheers:    :cooldancing:   
Ken  --  In Georgia

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Offline willhaven

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Re: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2007 - 09:54:03 PM »
Lots of info here. Thanks guys. And NZ, I'd definitely want to go with a manual 5 or 6 speed over an OD. I'd probably drive the car as-is for a while first.

Offline v8440

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Re: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2007 - 03:41:57 AM »
Since gears are torque multipliers, and the rear tires are getting more power delivered to them

This is false.  Gears don't affect power, they affect TORQUE.  Power, AT BEST, can only remain the same through a gear change.  In reality, you'll almost always see less power with a change to numerically higher gears.  This is easily verified on a dyno, and is not a freak effect of dynos-it's real.  The reason for this is what I said before-the numerically higher gears require the engine/drivetrain to accelerate quicker for any given amount of vehicle speed increase.  The extra power required to produce this increased driveline acceleration shows up as a decrease in available power at the wheels. 

Now, you may be thinking "that can't be right-people almost always go quicker with more gear" and you're often right.  The reality is that BOTH things are true, as weird as it may sound.  How this can be is that two opposing factors are usually at work here-one is the tendency to get less power at the wheels with more gear, and the other is MOST cars' need for more gear than they already have, purely from an acceleration standpoint.  On the average car, the improvement from more gear outweighs the power loss-hence, the improvement in ET.  It may sound like I have contradicted myself-I just said that most cars need more gear for best acceleration, but I also said more gear decreases wheel hp.  How can this be?  Again, it's opposing factors at work.  The average car is geared for many factors other than just acceleration (which is a good thing-don't need to make the mideast any more money than we already do).  To produce a good ET, you need to select gears that will cause the engine to operate at as much as possible at speeds where it produces as much power as it can.  This is usually at the higher end of the rpm range with a gasoline engine.  A numerically low gear won't allow the engine to rev to that rpm quickly enough for good acceleration.  Conversely, too much gear will require the engine to spend too much of it's own power accelerating itself, and the rest of the drivetrain to boot.  It becomes finding the best BALANCE between these factors.  Where that balance falls is what determines the best gearing for acceleration. 

I realize that I just said something else apparently contradictory-that lots of gear allows engines to rev to the rpms where they make the most power, but also costs power.  The answer is that again, it's a balancing act.  It's a balance between having enough gear to let the engine reach high rpm relatively quickly, without making it spend too much power accelerating.  If you put 5.38's in there and make it rev almost instantly, you lose power.  If you put 2.14's in there and keep it from ever revving enough to make power, you lose power.  See?  Opposing forces again, and again it's the BALANCE of these factors that determines best acceleration.  You could say that the best gear ratio (ignoring traction issues) is the one that strikes the best balance and allows the most AVERAGE power to be delivered to the wheels during a pass down the track. 


The main point I'm making here is to point out that there are factors at work in gear selection that oppose each other, and that you cannot simply take the position that more is always better and expect to come out ahead.  Many people do not have the option or ability to make their car hook with 5.13 gears, or build their engine such that it can safely and efficiently rev to 7500 rpm.  From a theoretical standpoint it may be best if they do that, but reality often makes us compromise.  When you have to make do with an engine that only revs to 5500 rpm, less gear than all-out drag racing gears is generally best.


Now, in the case of my car with the 3.91's and 4.56's...it actually hooked fine with the 4.56's.  There was no tire spin, as evidenced by several witnesses.  I had jet extensions in the rear float bowl, and the float levels were set properly for the track, so there was no fuel starvation or flooding problem.  It's simply that somewhere in between 3.91's and 4.56's the car crossed the point where having more gear helped enough to offset the increased driveline acceleration.  It is very possible that 4.10's or 4.30's might have been optimal, and therefore better than 3.91's.  I did not have those gears to experiment with, so I simply put the 3.91's back in.

Offline cowboy

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Re: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2007 - 04:13:23 AM »
Also, what cam would you guys go with? It's a 4bbl car.

If the car got the 3.91 ratio, keep it that way..

Choise of cam, - nothing beets the org. MoPar 308 degree sixpack cam....

 :2cents:
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Offline Bearcuda

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Re: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2007 - 05:18:21 AM »
Wow, a lot of info here on the subject. Here's what I have seen with my Cudas. My first Cuda had a mild 440/ 727 with 3:91's in it. On the highway, I had to stay under 60 to keep the RPMs acceptable. I don't remember what that number was exactly. The car at a dead stop would take off like a spanked monkey. Now, my current Cuda is a built 440 with about 500 HP. It supposedly has 3:23's in it. The thing is, this car seems to spend the tires much more easily than my previous one. I know that could be due to the tire compound, air pressure and all that. I think the gearing is right though because I can cruise at about 65 mph and be under like 3200 I think. I haven't driven it in awhile now so I can't remember the RPMs exactly. I just know that I can drive on the highway with 3:23s easier than the 3:91s that were in the other one but still have plenty of take off power. I had and now have 275/60 15s on both cars in the rear.
1973 Cuda 440
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Offline Oldschool

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Re: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2007 - 09:24:24 AM »
This is false.  Gears don't affect power, they affect TORQUE. 



That is what I clearly stated -- "gears are torque multipliers". I still stand by my statements. If the motor is up to the gear, and you go from 3:91 to a 4:56 and slow down, you have other issues rather than the gear change. Maybe the engine ran out of steam at the 1200 foot mark? Could be any number of things that caused the slowdown, and the gear change brought the other issues to light. If the engine runs out of rpm at the 1200 foot mark, that will slow you down. This could easily happen if the engine was near max rpm with the 3.91. Like I said, IF the motor can support the gear.
The reason a car runs quicker with steeper gears is power multiplication. For example:
A 440 is rated near 500 ft lbs torque so we will use 500. So with
2.76 gears the torque is multiplied 2.76 X 500 = 1380 ft lbs is applied to the rear tires
4.30 gears multiply the torque 4.30 X 500 = 2150 ft lbs at the tires
both of these are assuming you are in the direct gear in the tranny 3rd in an auto & 4th with a 4 spd
if you add in the tranny gearing you get a 2.45 ratio in 1st gear with an auto tranny
so 500 X 2.45 X 2.79 = 3418 ft lbs torque
or 500 X 2.45 X 4.30 = 5267 ft lbs torque

Using an example from above, going from 3:91 to 4:56 rear gears and using 500 lb/ft torque, here are the rear wheel torque numbers.
3.91 X 500 = 1955 at the rear tires
4.56 X 500 = 2280 at the rear tires
So, with 325 MORE lb/ft torque at the rear tires, your car should not have slowed down unless there are other issues that are preventing the car from taking advantage of the increased torque at the rear wheels.

Way too many things to consider here trying to sort out the perfect gear for every car. They are all different. The original poster wanted to know which gear to go with in his 440 street car with a lot of acceleration as a consideration. Which will be perfect for him? That will be decided by the rest of his combo. There is no perfect street/strip gear. He must decide what is more important to him, acceleration and quickness or lower cruising rpm and fuel mileage. If it's a weekend toy (not a daily driver) and it's a muscle car I vote to steepen the gears and sacrifice a little rpm and mileage. Always good to have the acceleration to put these youngsters in their place.... LOL
 :cheers:     :cooldancing:   
« Last Edit: April 08, 2007 - 10:10:15 AM by Old's Cool »
Ken  --  In Georgia

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Offline moper

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Re: Gear choice for a 440-727 car.
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2007 - 10:17:58 AM »
3.91s and the XE268 cam and springs to match. And you're done. I drove a 3.91 car with 27" tires for 2.5 years daily. Highway, local, you name it. You didn't want to cruise at 85mph, but it was fine with no OD. It's all opinion really. But that's how I'd build it.