Author Topic: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?  (Read 6374 times)

Offline Carlwalski

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528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« on: April 09, 2007 - 06:00:44 AM »


Well, I've all but decided to go with the 528 Hemi. Now I am making up my list of how I want it built. I have never really looked into EFI but a hell of a lot of guys seem to talk about it. I've heard from more than a few people that I'll get more hp and also better throttle response. I have a few questions.

1) Is EFI more reliable than a 4bbl or 2x4bbl setup?
2) They say it needs to be tuned with a PC, where does it plug into and do I then need to go buy a laptop?

I was either looking at a Demon or Holley 950cfm ($700-$750) or the EFI (Ball park $3,000).
Please offer any thoughts or opinions, ideally if someone has one of the set ups off some input.


:cheers:
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60




nivvy

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Re: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2007 - 06:08:53 AM »
Well if your going all the way I would say EFI...that would be cool a 528 EFI HEMI..... you sound excited... I remember when I started with a bare block and started ordering parts....  :burnout:

Your gonna have to have a poll on what to name this one..... I say KING CUDA.... lol

Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2007 - 06:15:12 AM »

Your gonna have to have a poll on what to name this one..... I say KING CUDA.... lol


:smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: Not sure yet but I may have to put some kind of barrier up between the 'Cuda and Lucy. The 'Cuda may attack Lucy when they finally meet. I'll have to make them get use to each other. Lucy is a mild mannered A/C 440 cruiser and the 'Cuda will be an all out animal. :lol: "You be nice to her 'Cuda....."  :nono:  :lol:

Yeah, I'll need to find out a little more on how you tune EFI. I know the resto shop will know how but they haven't been open to talk to due to Easter and I don't want to bother them at home. They don't even know I'm going with a 528 Hemi yet. They still think it's going to be a 340ci. :grinno: So I'll go around tomorrow and drop the bomb on them.

They'll be over the moon.....not many shops get to play/work with Hemis down here. Espeaically 528s.

:cheers:
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60

Offline IMNCARN82

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Re: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2007 - 06:46:58 AM »
EFI     is    S  I  C  K :scared:
'73 340 5 speed,RMS,BAER,... "Supercuda" (O[   ]||||[   ]O)  
'69 Dodge Charger 383,Auto                  (OiiiiiiiiiiIiiiiiiiiiiO)
13' Challenger R/T BlacktoP  6spd. (OO________OO)
71' Demon
75' Duster
87' Conquest TSI
56' Plaza
Boulder CO
Robert    "cuda bob"

Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2007 - 07:28:34 AM »
EFI     is    S  I  C  K :scared:

 :lol: The good sick :smokin: or the bad sick? :eek4: :dunno:
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2007 - 08:16:08 AM »
I am building a 440 EFI right now we will see how it works out

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2007 - 09:10:02 AM »


Cool, thanks Neil. I'm not sure how many EFI's out there are made for the Hemi, can only be handful I'm thinking.
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60

Offline 67Vette427

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Re: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2007 - 10:22:16 AM »
Hi NZ,

I think for effiency the EFI is the way to go. I'm not sure if they're making a manifold for the hemi like the one Chryco posted? I looked at the throttle body units for mine but decided to run a Holly instead. Reason being, I didn't want and extra wiring harness, didn't want to have to mount the ecm somewhere, didn't want to run the FI fuel pump, didn't think for the cost would justify the results when the car is only driven 5-10 times a year locally, I heard the carb give better throttle response.

Single carb or EFI is the way to go. I ran dual quads on the Challenger, too much headache. Besides under the shaker who will see it anyway!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007 - 10:25:44 AM by 67Vette427 »
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Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2007 - 11:13:12 AM »


WHOA! Very nice! :clapping: Yupe, single 4bbl was all I was going to get if I went the carb route. :thumbsup:



:cheers:
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60

Offline Dray

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Re: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2007 - 12:20:17 PM »
Hey NZ,

This is a little lengthy, so I apologize up front.  Anyways, this is like deja-vu.  I was doing exactly what you are almost 2 years ago  :lol2:  In any event, I decided to go the EFI route for a few reasons, starting, idling, and lack of maintenance.  Any carburetted vehicle I have ever owned ran awesome the first 3-4 months then they required minor carb tweaking and I just don't have the knowledge to successfully do this.  EFI isn't as finicky and in the event I do need to tweak it, I can call Tim @ For Hemi's Only and he sends me the file to upload.  Oh yeah, don't forget about fuel economy  :screwy:  :grinno:

Anyways, when I spoke with Tim about going EFI, he initially was against the idea.  He has been building Hemi's for quite a while and has the perfectly tuned package using the carb setup.  After some prodding, I convinced him to give it a shot although he probably thought I was crazy.  The biggest problem that he ran into was getting the hemi to breath.  Any EFI intake he tried just wasn't getting enough air into the engine and overall the build was performing worse than the carb setup using the Stage V intake, both in overall power and in the power curve.

By this point in time, I could sense a change in his opinion about the EFI as he could definitely see the advantages that I wanted above.  So being the fanatic/genius that he is he set off to modifying the Stage V intake in an attempt to get this horse the oxygen it need to really stretch its legs. 

So, after a bunch of research and development, including modification of the Stage V single plane dual four intake, adding 2 1000 cfm throttle bodies, choice of the Big Stuff GEN3 PRO SEFI electronics and getting 2 different EFI experts in to program the system along with taking the engine on a trip down to Michigan into the OEM dyno lab, I get the following 2 emails in Dec 2006. 

"The EFI we are now using will outperform the carbs we normally use. We made roughly 650hp on carbs, and are 30hp above that now. We are making way more torque all the way through. This EFI allows us to use huge dual 1000cfm throttle bodies without suffering the effects that oversize carbs produce. You will also get fuel economy unheard of with carbs, as we are able to select and adjust the fuel/spark to optimum settings. Carbs have to be over-jetted, as they are not as precise or fast acting."

"A quick update on your engine. We brought in a retired engineer from GM who did all their EFI and race car programming.  We first wanted to compare data from Michigan against our own dyno, and they were virtually identical. He wanted to look at our fuel and VE data. With a few of his changes to the computer program, your engine power increased to almost 700hp. He was rather shocked to see how much power a hemi makes with rather mild cam timing. We had to adjust our dyno brake twice to increase the load, as part throttle power was up also."

At this point Tim mentioned to me that he was so impressed with the EFI build he was going to put it into his own vehicle.  That to me was the icing on the cake and as Tim put it, he thought I now had the most advanced EFI hemi on the planet.  :dogpile: Oh yeah, there is no curve left in the power curve anymore as you can put a ruler to it.  :2thumbs:

I hope this helps.  Cheers.
dray

Offline Jacksboys

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Re: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2007 - 12:27:39 PM »
 :iagree:

I did a bunch of research on EFI and would have gone that way on my 360, but I could not afford the price.  If you can afford it, go with the EFI for several reasons:

1. No more trouble starting/stalling in cold weather.
2. Once tuned, No more tuning needed: The computer adjusts the air/fuel ratio depending on the altitude, temperature, and humidity to provide you with the best power.
3. Your low RPM throttle response is vastly improved.
4. If you want to richen up or lean out the air/fuel mixture, it only requires a few minutes with a computer and your done.
5. etc. etc. etc.

The EFI computer usually has a connection port that will easily connect to a labtop.  It really depends on the brand and type of EFI that you get.

Here are a few sites I found:

http://www.force-efi.com/
http://www.rancefi.com/
http://www.megasquirt.info/
http://www.superiordesignconcepts.com/efiintake.html
http://www.modulardepot.com/fuelcalc.php

I would suggest you do a bunch of reading on EFI before you make the decision, but if I had the money I would go with the EFI.
1971 Dodge Challenger:  360/904/3.23
   
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Offline HemiDog

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Re: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2007 - 12:44:01 PM »
I have EFI going on my 572 Hemi and it is adding a little over $5000 to the motor.  :faint:
This includes items like the Stage V intake manifold, 2 four barrel throttle bodies, ECU, main harness, injector harness, coolant sensor, air temp sensor, map sensor, 8 65lb injectors, work on modifying the manifold, and setup and generation of the fuel and ignition maps. 
The reason I went this direction is for the same reasons as stated above, plus the cool factor. :bigsmile:

Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2007 - 05:38:54 PM »


WHOA!!! Thanks guys, thanks a heap. Definitely sounds like EFI is for me and the way to go.
Does sound pricey but if I'm going to do it, do it once do it right. Always been my motto.

Thanks once again and Dray, don't worry about long posts mate, it's all good. You should check out my Gear Vendors threads......I have a few Chinese phonebook length posts in there don't YOU worry! :icon16:

Thanks once again lads, I'll ask Tim at FHO to give me the same setup as Dray. I've heard no matter what board, CCC, Moparchat and Moparts that Tim Banning walks on water. :lol: No honestly, he does.


:cheers:
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2007 - 11:23:34 PM »
We are using an accufab single billet 4 bbl style throttle body 1200 CFM
 For Computer we are looking at www.sdsefi.com   it comes with its own programmer & is a top quality & local product

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline blown74

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Re: 528ci Hemi - EFI or Carb?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2007 - 11:37:49 PM »
 :wow:Thats some great information. I've got two jet ski's One EFI the other not. The EFI jetski is definitely better. If I had the bucks I would go EFI. Laptops are cheap and with todays programs its pretty easy to tune EFI. Do most of the EFI systems use one or two O2 sensors?
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