Author Topic: Modern parable...GM and Toyota  (Read 3634 times)

Offline ragtopdodge

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Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« on: April 13, 2007 - 10:51:35 AM »
Sorry if a re-post:

Modern Parable

A Japanese company ( Toyota ) and an American company (General Motors)
decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River . Both teams practiced
long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

GM very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the
reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior
management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.
Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person
steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person
rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a
consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second
opinion. They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the
boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent
another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was
totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering
superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1
person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the
"Rowing Team Quality First Program," with meetings, dinners and free pens
for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and
other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor
performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and
cancelled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was
distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing
team was out-sourced to India .

Sadly, The End.

Sad, but oh so true! Here's something else to think about: GM has spent
the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US , claiming they
can't make money paying American wages. Toyota has spent the last thirty
years building more than a dozen plants inside the US . The last quarter's
results: Toyota makes 4 billion in profits while GM racked up 9 billion
in losses. GM folks are still scratching their heads.  Don't even think about Ford Or Chrysler.....

 :violin:
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KTO

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Re: Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2007 - 12:51:26 PM »
I think there is a lot of negative propoganda towards american vehicles everywhere. That may have something to do with it since negative press can go a long way to destroy someone or something.. American vehicles are supposedly less reliable and dont last as long. I really dont see it. I could be wrong but I rarely see an import on the road around here that is more than 10 years old. 

Offline Street_Challenged73

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Re: Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2007 - 01:56:46 PM »
..I could be wrong but I rarely see an import on the road around here that is more than 10 years old. 

Well, I look at Toyota and know they produce engines that can really hold up well after many years and miles.  My current college beater car is a '91 Corolla that still runs smooth with 239,800 miles on the odometer. (oil has been changed every 2,500-3,000 miles since new)  The nicest part is aside from needing to rebuild the front end a couple times due to the higher mileage, I haven't had any major engine/transmission problems to date. (The largest being a hydraulic clutch reservoir that went out and I thought it was the clutch itself until I had the transmission out and inspected the old clutch...Oh, and at 214,000 miles, it still had close to the same amount of fiber left as the new one did. :faint:)  I feel Toyota has really placed themselves well in the market and are easily known for producing vehicles that seem to run forever.  GM, not so much, Chrysler's alright, Mitsubishi has around the same amount of mileage problems GM has, and I haven't really had a lot of experience with the rest. (mainly exotics.)  Opps, guess I got a little off-topic with this one. :misbehaving:

Don't take this as a personal attack or anything KTO.  I simply thought the material posted contradicted my personal experiences with Imports, mainly being Toyota. :cheers:
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Offline Jacksboys

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Re: Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2007 - 02:31:07 PM »
I am going to step into the danger zone on this one, so comment if you wish.  I think it is partly to do with wages.  I could be wrong, but as stated in the first post, the American companies are always giving bonuses to the upper level management and not using the money to improve their products or production.  I could be wrong, but the top executives should not be making $1,000,000+ per year.

Also, another problem with American companies, they are still trying to make their cars bigger, heavier, faster.  This in turn will cause their parts to wear out faster, which makes it look like the quality is lower.   

Now don't get me wrong, I love a heavy American gas-guzzling V8 as much as anyone else, but I know that chances are it will not last as long as a 2.0L Toyota or Honda passenger car because of its size and usage.

I know that Toyota is making a new 5.7L truck engine, and I would like to see how long it will last compared to the current American truck engines.  I bet that with everything else equal, it will last about as long as the American V8s.  We will have to wait and see.
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KTO

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Re: Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2007 - 02:55:25 PM »
Well, I look at Toyota and know they produce engines that can really hold up well after many years and miles. 

No problem at all, I think the reason I see more american cars around here is due to the farm communities. That and the salt they put on the roads in the winter time seems to shred Japaneese vehicles. I agree toyotas do run forever. I would love to find a little old toyota pickup for winter driving but I never seem to see any that dont look like swiss cheese with a motor :) I'm guessing that's the salt talking.

Offline BIGSHCLUNK

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Re: Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2007 - 02:59:35 PM »
As the auto recycler on this site I see alot of sides to this story. First off I think ragtop nailed alot of it right on the head! But.... I see all kinds of things the general public dosen't. And the lack of maintenance on the majority of cars is appalling. Oh poor me .. my (american) piece of junk needs a new tranny at 125k miles. Oh really?? How often have you changed the fluid? Change fluid?? huh???
Granted that was just an example. I can name MANY Japanese and American deficencies based on parts we sell alot/get alot of calls on.
Here's some examples..
97 & up 4cyl Camry engines... wish I had more to sell!!!! Good $$$$$$$$
Chevy/GMC Tahoe Suburban rear ends... what you should change fluid in those too. I'm not spending $$ on that!!
Chrysler computers with built in regulators.
Remember when the Renault Alliance was car of the year??? I'm sure somebody at Motor TRend Magazine lost thier job over that one. But they were VERY GOOD to recyclers.. cause everything sold!!!!
Mazda...pick a trans any trans....
Now let me give you an American (sort of) sucess story. We use Ford rangers for our delivery trucks. Dropping parts at bodyshops/dealers/repair garages/ect. Unless they have been involved in an accident we generally get over 300k miles out of them. I started using them over 10 years ago. All v6 automatics. Now granted the V6 is GERMAN and my current trucks have FRENCH trannys. But we get good use out of them!
In conclusion... which is tuff for me cause I tend to ramble on. And believe me I could go on for another day on this subject. Amercas corprate management (like politcians are a bunch of sleepers).(I see the mods have edited my last comment.... good job!)And the American public overall are some of the most lazy people on the planet when it comes to vehicle maitenance. Also I don't think Toyota (example) has the benefit obligations the Big 3 have hanging over them. Pardon my spelling, I hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers here.  :stirpot:
« Last Edit: April 13, 2007 - 03:18:13 PM by BIGSHCLUNK »
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Offline ragtopdodge

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Re: Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2007 - 05:44:45 PM »
I think the parable is to show just how poor the decisions upper management has made.

Focusing JUST on SUVs and trucks is so short-sighted.

Coming out w/cars so damn boring in design (e.g. FOrd 500, Chevy Malibu) doesn't help either.

Reliability is really a non-issue any more on American cars.  But when they see how cheap the interiors look on American cars, folks quickly assume that the cars would be less reliable too since they skimped on the interiors and exterior design.

It's a shame that US workers have to suffer b/c of poor mgt decisions.

Look at the new CEO of Ford, Mullaly?  Making $34M in four months!?!?!?  WTF?

How do you make that kind of money when you lose billions?  Sure, it's not Mullaly's fault since he's a newbie, but don't reward the guy so dang quickly until a turnaround is starting to show.

Greedy executives and bean counters and shareholders looking for the quick buck w/o looking longterm like Toyota has.
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Offline dougs bs23

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Re: Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2007 - 05:59:26 PM »
and i think this topic speaks not only for the auto industry but all heavy industies as well,, Look at steel,, ,USS, Bethlehem, Wheeling Pittsburgh,  Where are they now?   Top exes are looking for there bonus and to satisfy the board with profits instead of modernizing and retooling. In any industry if you dont keep up with current trends, modern advances and new technology you are simply going to fail.  Oh wait,, i kinda got off subject here,,, gee sorry for being the proud son of a United Mine Worker  UMWA District 2 Local 17
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Offline matt63

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Re: Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2007 - 08:14:07 PM »
It's simple ... start building cars people want (maybe ask a few people before you build them) and do something to turn around the public belief that NA cars have lower reliability and stop discounting so much. 
Matt in Edmonton

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Offline jeryst

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Re: Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2007 - 08:47:41 PM »
I agree that management is one of the biggest problems. All they are concerned about is how to get the stock price up, so that their bonus will go up. And the money that they get is just plain obscene. But what really frosts me, is the severance packages that these guys are given. If you or I do a bad job, we get canned. These guys do a bad job and get canned, and then the company hands them millions to get rid of them. These companies need to wise up and stop rewarding bad performance. It's a win-win situation for the guys at the top.

If any car companies are listening out there, I've been in management for 25 years, and I'll glady manage any company and do what needs to be done for a fraction of what these guys are getting paid.

Another problem is the unions. Don't get me started on that.

Offline Stacked440

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Re: Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2007 - 10:04:59 PM »
Generally I believe American cars to be very high quality.  I'd sooner buy an American car than a Japanese, but eh...I know a guy that has been plagued by this recall for a while now after he bought a brand new Trailblazer.

Recall Data: 05/05/2005
Components: EXTERIOR LIGHTING:TURN SIGNAL
Units Affected: 286478

Recall Data: 11/01/2004
Components: EXTERIOR LIGHTING:BRAKE LIGHTS
Units Affected: 871473

If I bought a BRAND new Trailblazer, I don't want to have to worry about my taillights being out, or my turn signals doing funny things.  Thats just poor engineering.  I wish penny pushers at the top would stop designing cars and let engineers do it :2cents:  Very cool parable.
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Offline cudabuyer

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Re: Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2007 - 05:45:33 AM »
when you want to purchase a new or used car, don't go to the dealership

Ask a body shop man & a mechanic - they will give you the best advice   :faint:

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Offline JS27N0B

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Re: Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2007 - 04:04:10 PM »
You know, as a tech and a Service Manager at a Chrysler dealer, there is nothing wrong with domestic cars other than the high costs of wages paid to their employees. The feeling that japanese have higher quality is a fallacy. I am amazed that as highly patriotic as the United States is, they do not buy more local products, and by that I mean local where the profits will stay in this country, not overseas to the parent company.  Japan may have lost WWII, but just look at them now!
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Offline Jacksboys

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Re: Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2007 - 04:19:41 PM »
Japan may have lost WWII, but just look at them now!

The U.S. also helps them, since they do not have a military and we protect them.   :clueless:
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Offline Moparmatt

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Re: Modern parable...GM and Toyota
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2007 - 04:09:40 PM »
In immediately blaming outsourcing and poor management, you neglect some key factors. Granted, spineless and greedy upper management have been bowing before the altar of the UAW and padding their pockets for years, but the Japanese have only had plants in the US for a short while. These plants are strategically placed in areas that are historically not friendly to unions - hence the employees there are not unionized, and don't recieve all the benefits of UAW workers. In addition, these plants are new, and the employees young. They do not have the burden of older workers and retirees who will be and are collecting sizable pensions from the company.

Marketing of US automobiles has stunk for years. Combine this with uninspired exterior styling, cheap looking and poorly assembled interiors, and people not doing proper preventative maintanance, and they put themselves in a position to fail.

People also do not seem to understand that, yes, there are components on cars that wear out at certain intervals. My 1995 Ford Taurus has 176,000 miles on it, and I have replaced (recently) the fuel pump, water pump, mass airflow sensor and the rear calipers. Had a problem with the vacuum system the other day. Took it to the shop, they said it was the master brake cylinder. I replaced two cracked "T" joints in the line and it was fine. Dishonest dealers (told me at 45,000 miles I needed a new tranny, but replaced the speed sensor and haven't had a problem since) and unknowledgeable mechanics only continue to foster this perception of a lack of quality.

The Japanese have been marketing their cars well for years, with attractive styling and quality interiors. They have provided extended warantees and extensive customer relations programs to keep up the illusion that their cars are more reliable.

The American companies need to focus on quality, and building what the public wants them to build, not what they want to build. The perfect example is Ford Europe. They made a hefty profit last year, and build cars that people want to buy. But American product managers won't let these cars enter the American lineups because they fear that they will compete with Mazda and Jaguar.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2007 - 04:15:10 PM by Moparmatt »