Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?

Author Topic: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?  (Read 3116 times)

Offline Carlwalski

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 20672
Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« on: April 22, 2007 - 02:47:55 AM »


Hey guys, I've talked about this topic in the past but now with some serious numbers under the hood it's time to take it seriously. I'll be running a 528ci (possibly 540ci) with around the 750hp+ mark and around the 680lb-ft+ of torque. I would want something very similar to Joe Rogans Sick Fish where it is hard to see inside the car. The 'Cuda will have 35% tints on it to help even more.

The car won't see the track very often, if at all. It's built to be a "track/circuit" car for the street.  The only con I can see is looks wise. Joe Rogans car has the forward bars from the back seat shaped right down. It lessens the roll bar setup somewhat but for ease of getting in and out it's basically a normal entry. The pros are saftey of course and also help stiffen the body even more than we're going to. What are your thoughts?


:1zhelp:
« Last Edit: April 22, 2007 - 04:11:00 AM by NZ440R/T »
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60




nivvy

  • Guest
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2007 - 04:24:24 AM »
Boy NZ that is a tough question as Im in that dilema right now as well... however 71 cuda is worth more than my 72 challenger...

Here in the states if you run quicker than 11.49 in the 1/4 mile you need a cage but also the cage looked great in joe rogans cuda...also depends on the tires you run because if you dont run some kinda drag radial your gonna just smoke them up like nothing and the a$$ end will just kick out on ya...and I actually got sick of that in my car! I really like the new MT ET Street radial 325/50/15 tire...  :burnout:

Offline Carlwalski

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 20672
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2007 - 04:31:46 AM »


Yupe, if I did have a roll bar set up it would be identical to Rogans car. Look at the entry, it's normal.
Plus they did a great job on hiding the forward bars behind the pillars and sun visor area etc. I think the only bar you can see is behind the seats but even then it's in line with the window gaps.

As for tires and traction, 315 will be the smallest I'll go too. I would like something like 325 or 345 tires. If I have to do a min tub I will. It's a car built for me (like always) so resale is of no importance. Lucy is my stock "cruiser" and a car that keeps to the original factory image. This 'Cuda will be built to haul and be wild. Non numbers matching with a non correct 528/540ci Hemi. I'll be buying a rolling chassis without a engine to save the car. If I find a car needing work with it's original engine /6 or Hemi I won't take it no matter how good it is or the price. I would rather someone restore it to factory spec and I'll take the dying cars or ones with "no future".

I'm in it for me but also the hobby. :cheers:
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60

Offline 360 'CUDA

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 5784
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2007 - 01:02:50 PM »
If your gonna go that modified then why not just do up your '73 like a '71 ?  That way you can go hog wild and not have all the expense of a new car to work on.  Also you could go with an aftermarket '71 grille and glass hood to save money that way too  :dunno:

Offline Carlwalski

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 20672
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2007 - 08:48:43 PM »

If your gonna go that modified then why not just do up your '73 like a '71 ?  That way you can go hog wild and not have all the expense of a new car to work on.  Also you could go with an aftermarket '71 grille and glass hood to save money that way too  :dunno:


I could do that....buttttttt, deep down inside I'll know (and others) that it's a 73. I really want a legit, real, 1971 car. Clone doesn't bother me, infact, I believe it's better and also a good selling point. I want a car I can drive and enjoy "enthusiastically". :naughty: I could never, ever, own a true 1971 Plymouth Hemi 'Cuda, it would just be a waste at my house. I respect the hobby too much to drive it and would be too scared to drive it.

The car will be modified but not insanely done. IMO, there is a fine line between mods and rice, I feel I know where this point is. It will have aftermarket seats, and some minor interior cloth/leather work done to the panels etc to keep it around the same style. New seats and nothing else would like half-ar$ed. I want/need new seats as with 700hp+ those seats are useless, as it is, stock in a 440 they offer no side support or any real comfort when taking a corner at speed. Lots to think about and a long time until completion. I think I will be storing the 73 and restoring that miles down the road, 340/4-Speed or something would be nice.

:cheers:
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60

Offline moper

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2368
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2007 - 10:57:33 AM »
Rogan's cage is entirely usless in any sanctioning body inspection. So I wouldnt duplicate it with the premise of being safe. A properly designed cage will not intrude on driver or passenger comfort...But..it has to block some of the entry, unless you go with swing out side bars. If the goal is driving, I would have a custom deal made with swing out door bars, and a halo and forward bars. You can hide a lot of that, and it will provide safety in frontal, rear, or side impacts, altho the side hits are not as good as a solid bar. That's if you really plan to drive it. Of all the guys I know that built supercars like what you envision, only about 20% will ever really push te car or it's limits. If you never push it, you dont neeed the protection. I wouldnt cage it if you go to cruise nights. Just a roll bar and good belts, plus a good set of US Car Tool type connectors is fine to keep the doors lined up and the windshield in place.   

Offline Carlwalski

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 20672
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2007 - 11:23:20 AM »


Thanks Moper, good input and advice, much appreciated. :thumbsup:

I like to think I push myself and will eventually get around to taking my TS50 (Aussie Ford) and this 'Cuda for some track time (road/circuit course only), maybe once down the straights for some idea on time. Cruise nights or shows are the least of my concern, as it is, I hardly take Lucy, once actually. I'm not a big fan of standing around cars on a nice day. I'd rather be out driving, any day of the week.

As I see it now, my goal is for a "wild" all around street performer that won't disappoint on the track. Something I can get up and boogie with on the roads down here and if needs be drive straight to the track where it will really come to life. Of course, this will take a bit of time to get use to the power but I'm not dumb and won't go out there expecting to break records. Something like the XV001 car would be ideal, a well mannered car when on the street unless I want it to be an animal. I think "just" a roll bar would not do it for me, it's either roll cage or nothing. I'm after a car that can handle. Straightline will be fine with it's power but the setup will definitely be for handling, big tires but not supper big ie: bounce and stutter around corners etc.

I have the XV stiffening kit, subframes, rad support bar, cowl to inner fender bars etc and we'll be making plenty of our own body upgrades - lots actually. Things like the rear seat area bracing, steel "scatter" shield around the trans tunnel to keep my ankles in one piece if the Keisler decideds to quit, things like that. The main goal and major work for this car will be without question, the body modifications. As you'd know, a 35+ year old chassis would be pretty much torn apart limb by limb with a 700-750+hp Hemi throwing it's anger around.

Thanks for the input and sorry for the l-o-n-g post.


:cheers:
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60

Offline Carlwalski

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 20672
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2007 - 11:46:23 AM »


I did some Goggle searches on "swing bars" and although I'm not expert they don't look too safe?
They look weaker than the Rogan car.  :-\

What about something like the setup below?
A much higher drop angle than Sick Fish?  :dunno: It also allows pretty straight forward access.

I was thinking too, perhaps there would be some way to make the swing bars work when you open the door? Be a lot of custom modifications but it would make life easier?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2007 - 11:48:21 AM by NZ440R/T »
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60

Offline TrakHor

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 108
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2007 - 01:03:30 PM »

I did some Goggle searches on "swing bars" and although I'm not expert they don't look too safe?
They look weaker than the Rogan car.  :-\

What about something like the setup below?
A much higher drop angle than Sick Fish?  :dunno: It also allows pretty straight forward access.

I was thinking too, perhaps there would be some way to make the swing bars work when you open the door? Be a lot of custom modifications but it would make life easier?

That is a much safer option. Another thing to keep in mind, The halo bar and foreward down bars. If you can't cover them in substantial tubing foam/cushion, and you get into a fender bender on the street that tosses you around enough to hit your head, you could suffer serious injury, enough that you could suffer concussion and not be able to continue control of the car. I'm not trying to be the saftey police, but the roll bars/cage are supposed to be safe right?
I'd do a 4 point bar and door bars similar to the car you have pictured. However putting that bend mid way down is a no no.

If i remember right you are doing the air bar? If so i'd make the reward down bars tie into the floor just above the point of the shockwaves. This will tighten up the rear suspension.
Jason

Offline Carlwalski

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 20672
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2007 - 01:40:44 PM »


Thanks TrakHor, good input. :2thumbs:

This is Troys comments about the forward main bars in the door area. :dunno:
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60

Offline TrakHor

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 108
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2007 - 07:42:42 PM »

Thanks TrakHor, good input. :2thumbs:

This is Troys comments about the forward main bars in the door area. :dunno:

That works, but the bend still concerns me. If you were to spin and go backwards into a wall and the rear down bars push forward the main hoop will bend just above the point where the door bars meet as well as the door bars bending more at the bend that's there. I'd say from what I gather about what you are trying to do with this car. Do the lower door bar but don't do the bend.
Jason

Offline Carlwalski

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 20672
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2007 - 01:35:39 AM »

Thanks Jason. :cheers:

I'll definitely have to do the forward bar. What about something like I made below? Looks better than Rogans? From about half way down the main bar just to where it's not impeding the access in/out of the seats. Has a better angle? Any ideas or thoughts on improvement? If I do get a roll cage it will definitely be a custom job performed by the resto shop.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007 - 01:38:10 AM by NZ440R/T »
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60

Offline TrakHor

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 108
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2007 - 05:54:46 AM »
Thanks Jason. :cheers:

I'll definitely have to do the forward bar. What about something like I made below? Looks better than Rogans? From about half way down the main bar just to where it's not impeding the access in/out of the seats. Has a better angle? Any ideas or thoughts on improvement? If I do get a roll cage it will definitely be a custom job performed by the resto shop.

Much better, again this is taking into consideration what I percieve your plans for the car to be. Idealy you'd have your door bar attach to the main hoop where the horizontal bar attachs to the main hoop. This creates a "node" or strong point. Again since this is not a dedicated track car like i'm building you have to compromise to gain a little ease of entry and exit.
Jason

Offline moper

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2368
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2007 - 12:12:29 PM »
No offense to Troy, but if that bar were simply for decoration, he'd be fine. No sanctioning body would accept it. Why? Well, mainly because it allows the door bar to elongate as opposed to staying put under stress. That bar, when the cage is hit from any direction  except  down from the rear, will be under tension..not compression. That bend gives the bar more linear distance before it has to pull apart. Meaning, the cage's main hoop can be pushed back in a forward hit, or the bar can intrude the driver's (or passenger's) sapce in a side impact. Drag cars can get away with little worry about side impact, hence the swing out bars. A road car, or a fast street car MUSt deal with side impacts. Think of sliding thru a corner and hitting sand, the car swings off teh shoudler and catches a tree on teh drivers fender/door while moving at a 45° angle to the tree. That bar will bend trhu your legs, possibly into your side thru your arm. It's a bad design, born of "pretty", not safe. The swing out bars are not as good. But I would rather seet you with no halo or door bars, than those low bars. It's up to you. But the mild SCCA cars only need a 4 pt roll bar to guard against roll overs. Also, I would not tie the cage into the crossmember for the air bags. Personally, air bags belong on show cars and dump trucks. Not high performance cars. But the rear bars need to go to the back of the car. Not the front of the trunk.

Offline TrakHor

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 108
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2007 - 12:39:59 PM »
Personally, air bags belong on show cars and dump trucks. Not high performance cars. But the rear bars need to go to the back of the car. Not the front of the trunk.

What benefit is served by going all the way back to the rear of the car....just curious?