Author Topic: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?  (Read 3081 times)

Offline HP2

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4478
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2007 - 02:18:58 PM »
What benefit is served by going all the way back to the rear of the car....just curious?

The bars should support and provide rigidity to suspension input points. The main hoop provides this for the spring hanger. The rear legs would support the shackle area. Many coil over cars have the rear bars terminate at the coil over mounting point were the shocks used to be. However, with that said, I would also defer to the four post testing XV did and their findings the structurally, the rear of a mopar is already a very solid design and they saw virtually no benefit to adding additional bracing for leaf spring suspensions. The front, on the other hand, needed some help in a few areas. On a true circuit car, there is considerable amounts of roll cage work done that intrudes into the engine area to support these inputs. A good model of this type of work in a mopar application would be the old Direct Connection kit car chassis. This was a chassis designed specifically by Chrysler negineers to support agressive oval and road cars racing inputs on a stock suspension based competition chassis.




Offline TrakHor

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 108
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2007 - 02:40:29 PM »
The bars should support and provide rigidity to suspension input points. The main hoop provides this for the spring hanger. The rear legs would support the shackle area. Many coil over cars have the rear bars terminate at the coil over mounting point were the shocks used to be. However, with that said, I would also defer to the four post testing XV did and their findings the structurally, the rear of a mopar is already a very solid design and they saw virtually no benefit to adding additional bracing for leaf spring suspensions. The front, on the other hand, needed some help in a few areas. On a true circuit car, there is considerable amounts of roll cage work done that intrudes into the engine area to support these inputs. A good model of this type of work in a mopar application would be the old Direct Connection kit car chassis. This was a chassis designed specifically by Chrysler negineers to support agressive oval and road cars racing inputs on a stock suspension based competition chassis.

I agree, but I thought he was using the Air Ride air bar, therefor he wouldn't have a suspension pickup point in the Shackle area, thus my previous statement about putting the rear down bars to the shockwave mounts being a viable solution. Correct me if I'm wrong but the roll bars first job is to make the car safe in a roll over, and strengthing suspension points is an added possible benefit.

Offline moper

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2368
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2007 - 06:19:35 AM »
My experience (forms my opinion, so tkae it for that...) is the further back on the frame the bars terminate, the more structurally sound the cage will be in the event it's needed. In a rear impact, the bars' angles transfer the maximum amount of force to the main hoop and around the driver. The more sharp the angle, the less force will go to the hoop because the rear of the car will buckle. In terms of torsional (twist) strength, shortening the bars will reduce teh leverage teh cage has on the frame rails. The weight carrying spot is relocated by using the air bag crossmember. But the frame rails will still feel the twist from the floor and front rails. Take two pencils and a friend. Have him hold the point end with one in each hand, parrallel, and hold them about 2.5" apart. You take two fingers on each hand, and "pinch" each pencil between your finger at a point about 2" in front of the eraser end, and have him raise his right hand while you try to hold the pencils level. But witching to any point the air bags will move the center of gravity quite a bit towads the front of the car. The pencisl will pivot around the point your fingers are holding them, and they will twist. Now, use four fingers of each hand, one pair pinching the eraser end, the second pinching 2" ahead (where the first attempt was made). Now have him raise his right hand slightly. The pencils cant move very easilly without them both moving. That's what the cage does in a drag car, regardless of the rear weight carrying point.

Offline 360 'CUDA

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 5784
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2007 - 11:34:56 PM »
I think someone should "sink" the bars into the quarters with plates welded to the top of the rockers
 There is lots of room in there and you could really tie the car together well while leaving the stock backseat alone. The hoop could come out right in front of the quarter window, go up following the slanted chrome piece really tight welded to the roof in several pieces.
The backbars could follow the roof close and then go down the c-pillars over the rear wheelwells and to the back of the longitudinals.
You could have the lower front bars as shown in the previous pic but then have a set of legal swingout bars you could pin in for racing.

You could do the same thing on a full cage with the top front bars following the roof tight down the windsheild post through the dashpad tied to the lower front bars and on out to the shock towers and down to the front of the longitudinals

Offline 360 'CUDA

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 5784
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2007 - 11:50:59 PM »
I don't think the cage would be too good because it would weigh a ton. Maybe the rollbar with some struts from the firewall to the shear panels are a nice compromise like the way XV does it.

With the rollbar setup you could use the 5 point racing seatbelts.  Also, the pading on the side of the bar would protect your head from the sharp quarter window chrome.  Those chrome bits are a real safety problem on our E-bods and I think Mopar saw that and added those big soft pillars on many '73 and up B-bods for example

Offline ntstlgl1970

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2204
  • T a c o c a t
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2007 - 12:25:29 AM »
Here is another style that has a swing out door bar in addition to a low bar - I'm pretty sure this car was built to run in a sanctioned event, but not sure of the series, might be able to find out if it is helpful....the bar setup might be a decent compromise, although it is a camaro, the engine bracing is interesting also...
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007 - 12:28:13 AM by ntstlgl1970 »
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline Carlwalski

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 20672
Re: Roll Bar/Cage Or Not?
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2007 - 12:32:19 AM »


Holy crap, I've missed heaps of this post, great input and info guys (love the pics Pete).
If anyone missed, I won't be installing a roll cage in my 71 now, it'll be around 600hp so not so much of a risk.

However, I will more than likely be running one in my 73 so this has been helpful.
Hopefully others considering the move find this helpful as well.


:cheers:
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60