Author Topic: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...  (Read 9726 times)

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2007 - 04:23:42 PM »
what are the heads on a 70 383 HP?
906 if they are original heads

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Offline PlumCraZRT

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2007 - 11:50:57 PM »
 :iagree:

The open chamber heads are supposed to be good, but their combustion chamber volume is the obvious problem.  If you can easily go with a domed piston they might be the best/cheapiest/easiest solution.

I have some suspicion someone is going to say I'm wrong.  :(
mmmmm.... Mopar.... *drool*

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2007 - 12:38:37 AM »
no dome piston will work But it needs to be a reverse dome with the dome on the quench side Not under the valves 

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Offline moper

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2007 - 07:40:04 PM »
They still have plenty of domed pistons for these applications. Not the quench domes, but std type domes. They need to be set to 0 deck, and they are usually way below that...lol. The thing is, you now have crud pump fuel, desgined to work in engines far further ahead in tech than ours. So you can either build to suit it, of take the chances and deal with the result. The cheapest bang for teh buck right now is the Edelbrocks. But not everyone has $1400 to toss into a set of new heads. Nor do they want that look. Nor do most need the flow they have to make the power the customer wants. The 383 sitting out front in the R/T has milled (.050) 906s. It runs a static compression of 9.8:1 with flat top KB hypers, and the XE268 cam. It runs great, and there is no detonation with 3.55s and 91 octane pump fuel.

Offline Mopar God

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2007 - 07:22:22 AM »
I am asked this question on a continual basis and thought I would share my observations with the forum. Much of this will be old news to many of you, but I hope some of this information will prove useful. This is taken from an article I wrote a few years back, but the principles remain constant.

Cylinder head flow is directly related to engine performance. At low rpm, little benefit will be realized to increasing volume, since it is velocity that promotes crisp throttle response, but when matched with a higher lift/rpm camshaft, the differences do become apparent. I have been blessed with the opportunity to use a flow bench and a dyno almost as often as I would like to. It pays to have friends with this equipment when you are doing this kind of engine work.

To that end, I have found no need to port heads at horsepower levels under 400.

We have dyno'd numerous engine combinations and so far, a ported/polished cylinder head has always yielded a performance increase. However, it is often at a much higher rpm range than the average person will operate their engine!!!

Some heads, by design, flow less than others and no two heads yield identical flow numbers. Although you may not bolt on a set of ported heads and 'feel' the difference, it is there. I have installed headers on several cars that never gained 1/10th or 1 mph in the 1/4 mile. I have installed headers on other cars that made a significant difference.

My 429 Ford, with 11.25:1 compression and big solid lifter camshaft, ran noticeably stronger across the entire rpm range with a set of 'hand' ported heads. These heads were flowed and showed over a 20% increase in exhaust flow compared to a stock version. However, that was a 7500 rpm engine and I doubt that any real benefit was to be had in the lower rpm ranges.

In comparing a 426 Hemi to a 440, the answer is simple; the Hemi has a soggy bottom end and needs a low axle ratio to offset the low velocity of the intake port flow. My 440 was much, much stronger, crisper and made better power (overall) under 3500 rpm. As such, I prefer the 440 to the hemi in street applications.

Kent Ford, Cylinder Head R&D for Bill Elliot's NASCAR winning team has gone on record to say little, if any benefit can be found when porting a cylinder head that (by design) is made to produce higher flow numbers. (Circle Track - Oct. 1990). This would encompass most of the aftermarket heads available today.

So, what really works and is porting worthwhile? That question can best be answered by using techniques that have yielded proven results under 'real world' driving conditions. If you study the principles of hydraulics and movement of a fluid medium through various fittings, you will notice that smoothness is a key factor to flow. Like a fluid medium, but on a lesser scale, air also responds to a smooth surface. Cylinder heads are not 'rough cast' to promote flow or increase throttle response, but because the unmachined surface is cheaper to replicate.

The greatest benefit is seen when the bowls directly under the valve seats are smoothed and blended into the port throat, without alteration of the short turn radius. Matching the entry of the intake ports to the gasket is beneficial, but the port exit of the intake should be left as cast. Subsequently, I leave the port exits on the exhausts as cast to promote their flow into the headers.

In closing, I have to say that porting yields its greatest benefit on engines with limited airflow potential. Even the alcohol burning 5 HP Briggs & Stratton's we build for Junior Dragsters are treated to a full port & polish before they leave the shop. In the case of engines with very limited airflow characteristics, like the 21 & 24 stud Ford Flathead, porting and polishing makes a difference you can see (and feel) on the dyno.

On OHV cylinder heads, which are superior in terms of airflow by design, the difference is not so readily apparent.

On aftermarket performance heads (like Edelbrock)I doubt any benefit, except in very high rpm applications, could be realized by porting/polishing because of the flow characteristics imparted by the cylinder heads' design. This is based on the theory that most people never run their engines that hard on the street and the biggest benefit from increased airflow is had at or around 3000 rpm.

If you smooth away restriction without altering the basic shape of the port and match the ports to their respective manifolds and/or headers, I believe the benefit, though small, is well worth the effort.

In closing, I can attest that we made over 400 horsepower with a 9.50:1 440 and stock '915' closed chamber heads. Using that as a performance baseline, I see no reason for the average enthusiast to port/polish on any street engine designed to operate in the 1200-5500 rpm range.

I hope this information is helpful...Robert

Offline Mopar God

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2007 - 07:29:37 AM »
Regarding quench distance and the Chrysler V8 engine:

As many of you know, the quench distance is the compressed thickness of the head gasket ,plus the deck clearance (the distance your piston is down in the bore @ TDC). The quench area is the part of the piston that would contact a similar area on the cylinder head if you had .000" assembled quench height.

In a running engine, the ideal .040" quench drives the air/fuel mixture at high velocity through the combustion chamber and towards the spark plug. This movement tends to cool hot spots, averages the chamber temperature, reduces detonation and increases power.

Chryslers are unique that most are non-quench by design, unless you are running a '915' head. The Chrysler A, B and RB's can be converted to a quench type configuration with special pistons. I have been impressed with the selection of MoPar pistons offered by Keith Black/Silvolite, but others are available...Robert

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2007 - 11:12:29 AM »
I tend to Agree & disagree with your Post Robert
porting to increase port volume is definatly beneficial at higher RPM & drops velocity at low RPM where most engines are operated
But porting for shape not size is different altogether by removing turbulence & carefully directing airflow air fuel mixing & burn can be enhanced at low RPM , unfortunatly I have limited use of flow benches but I did port a set of heads thet gained flow significantly both at .100 lift & still had flow rising at well over .600 lift showing good response even with low flow volume
 In the real world on a Chassis dyno & in driving I have made unbelievable Gas milage & decent power #s

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Offline Mopar God

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2007 - 08:56:53 AM »
Chryco,

We have done a number of iron cylinder heads for 'RB' engines over the years. We have never seen a measureable difference in fuel economy from any porting operations. This included running an engine under constant load through a single gallon of fuel.

Low lift flow is where the greatest performance benefits will take place on a street engine. In fact, we saw little if any benefit lifting the valves past .500" on a stock MoPar head. Smoothing the ridges and steps under the valve seats and using a 5 angle (3 on the seat and a backcut on the valves) arrangement has yielded the best results in controlled testing.

Blending the first 3/4 inch of the intake ports to the gasket yields better flow values than enlarging the entire port at valve lifts under .465" overall.

One of the biggest killers of performance is porting the exhaust exits bigger than the header inlets. We see this on a very regular basis.

In the end, I still maintain, through both Dyno and actual drag strip testing, porting will yield no measureable benefit on a street engine under 400 horsepower and .500" valve lift...Robert

Offline ViperMan

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2007 - 07:43:09 PM »
Holy crap I have some reading to do...

Find a corner to sit in and cry. :crying:

Duely note  - I'll get right on that!!  :)

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Offline Mopar God

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2007 - 01:58:03 AM »
After reviewing some flowbench notes.....I see that the 906's flow better than the 915's but I prefer the 915 for its detonation resistance. Flow values taken at 28 in/H20:

             906

Intake    208.5 cfm @ .500" lift
Exhaust  156.3 cfm @ .500" lift


            915

Intake   198.6 cfm @ .500" lift
Exhaust 133.5 cfm @ .500" lift

And we made over 400 horsepower on a basically 440 with stock 915's...Robert


Offline moper

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2007 - 01:54:46 PM »
Robert ,  :worshippy

The only changes I would make are these:

 First, unless one is racing a class and is building a pure race engine, the smallest (by volume), fastest (but remaining non turbulent), smooth flowing port ending with the smallest intake valve for a given bore will run the best over the widest range of RPMs. It's easy to make 475-500hp (flywheel) with mainly stock port iron heads. A simple 5 angle valve job, and bowl blending and gasket matching is all it takes. Smaller is faster. Faster is better.

Second, the single biggest factor in cylinder head choice for a multi-use engine (street/strip, tow/RV/offroad, etc) is the stroke of the crank. And the fact that longer strokes are now pretty reasonably priced, using a longer stroke makes the performance (by design) aftermarket heads need to be ported to move the similar increase in air. A 4.25" stroke increases piston speed over 3.75 by 13%. So the typical 440 that made peak torqe at 3400 will now make if (generalizing....) at 2950. The airflow that the thing made peak hp at 5800 with now will bee needed at 5000 rpm with no other changes. So larger ports (by volume) are made use of much better.

Thanks Robert

Offline ViperMan

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2007 - 03:23:26 PM »
 :eek7:
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Offline 6packCuda

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2007 - 05:17:47 PM »
Man, all this is pretty confusing for a guy like me. I do have one question to throw in here though. If I was to replace my 906s with Indy EZs would I benefit from having any port work done on them or should I just bolt them on right out of the box. The engine is a 451 with .507 lift, and rarely sees more than 5500 rpms.
Dave

Offline Mopar God

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2007 - 10:15:37 PM »
Very well put, Moper...Your theory is correct.

Offline moper

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Re: Let's talk Cylinder heads... Come on, ya wanna...
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2007 - 09:56:35 AM »
Man, all this is pretty confusing for a guy like me. I do have one question to throw in here though. If I was to replace my 906s with Indy EZs would I benefit from having any port work done on them or should I just bolt them on right out of the box. The engine is a 451 with .507 lift, and rarely sees more than 5500 rpms.

Read the responses. My feeling is on a 3.75 stroke combo that rarely reaches 5500 and has a fairly small cam, any Indy product is way too big for decent street manners. Will they make more power? Maybe. But nothing is gained without giving up somewhere else. In your case, that would be idle quality and low speed (under 3000rpm) response. I think the RPMs would be ok, but even they are a little "big" for an engine that doesnt get revved.They would look cooler tho, and they are a bit lighter.