Author Topic: Choosing squirter size?  (Read 9364 times)

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2007 - 07:58:47 PM »
you wil get a stumble with either a too rich or too  lean condition , , basically you want to have the shortest duration & least amount of fuel added without a stumble , adding any more fuel is just wasting fuel

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Offline moper

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2007 - 04:26:59 PM »
Ok, dont get uppity, this is going to be my opinion...lol. I think things are happening faster than you think in the carb.
The way it works is this: On all circuits except the power valve and acc pump, air flow (moving air) creates the energy to pull in fuel. At idle, the fuel is being pulled thru the idle circuit strictly by the air moving around the throttle plates. Think of the system this way...remove the acc pump system totally. Now, as your foot moves the throttle the air speed begins to increase thur the venturi(primary side). There is a small slot called the transition slot that is about 3xs the thickness of the plate long, stuck right where the throttle plates are at rest (idle). As the plates pass the slot, more slot is exposed to the airstream, and more fuel flows into the mix. When the transfer slot is completely exposed to the airstream, the only thing that richens the mixture is the power valve circuit, until the air speed has picked up enough to draw fuel out of the boosters. I emphasize air speed, because you'll always hear differeing opinions on carb sizing. But generally, the bigger the hole (throttle bore...) the slower the air speed for a given rpm. You have a large carb. 870 wet flowed is the equivolent of a 950cfm old school dry flowed Holley. It's 20% larger than I would ever say to run on a street 440. Now, add in the secondary detail. The secondary system relies on air moving thru the primary side to create the pull that opens the secondary plates. The spring counteracts this suction to close them and delay the opening. A lighter spring means less air speed is required to open the secondaries. The purple is one step lighter than the std (natural color) spring. If you couple the less air speed required, and the larger throttle bores with limited displacement, you will get a bog when you smack the throttle and the air spikes up then drops quick. In terms of elapsed time, this happens in hundreths of a second. The spike cracks the secondaries, then the spring has to close them against the now gone suction. The thing that's supposed to help all this, is the accelerator pump circuit. It's a finite volume. SO, the pump will discharge the same volume of fuel. The only thing you can change is how far the pump arm moves (the cam choice) and how long it takes to discharge that volume (the squirtor size). The smaller the squirtor, the longer time it takes to shoot the given volume of fuel (bigger hole, more goes thru faster). If you have a fairly mild gearing, and a fairly low stall speed (under 2500) then the engine's bog will get worse, not better unless you do two things. The carb is too big by most standards. But, it's vaccum secondary. So, I would go back to the 31 shooter and the factory cam, and I'd put in the next heavier spring from natural (brown I think?) to delay the secondaries. If you "feel" them open, you are only feeling them open and then the air speed pick up enough to deliver fuel at 3800. So they should be slammed shut with a heavier spring and kept there until the engine needs the air. If you go to the track, you would see the smoother operation result in faster speeds and lower ETs, even tho you'd swear it's not right. You should be able to run that carb, but it will need careful tuning to get things dialed in as good as possible.

Offline MyMopar

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2007 - 11:39:19 AM »
Thanks moper.  I have come to the same conclusion as you after doing more research.  I did put a brown spring in and put the 31 squirter in.  It's been raining so I haven't had a chance to test it out. Will post back once I do.
1969 (OO===]|[===OO)
1973 (OO/=====\OO) <---SOLD
1997 (O|||||O) <---SOLD

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Offline moper

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2007 - 12:39:03 PM »
Cool. Like CP said, you will get similar issues with both extremes. The accelerator pump is really just a crutch until the air picks up the fuel on it's own. Keep after it..lol I'm sure it will get fixed.

Offline MEK-Dangerfield

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2007 - 05:23:08 PM »
I'm now guessing the squirter is too small.  :misbehaving:



  Mike   :popcorn:

I'm just thinking 35-37.

Mike

1970 Challenger - SOLD
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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2007 - 02:00:00 AM »
in most cases 31 is enough IF everything else is working correctly

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Offline MyMopar

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2007 - 09:26:53 AM »
Took my car out this morning.  Ran better, if I step on it, I get a flutter type of stumble, but it goes away quickly.  If I'm in first gear doing about 15 mph and step on it, the car lights up the tires all the way into third.  It revs better, but it still does have an issue.  I'm going to try to work on the pump cam before ordering another squirter.  Right now I have a long duration pump cam in where it shoots from idle and reaches full stroke about 3/4 throttle.

So my combo is:
31 squirter
brown spring
bluish pump cam
#78 prim jet
#82 sec. jet
14* / 34* all in 3800rpm

I'm going to jet down also as the plugs are black and the exhaust smells a bit rich.  Perhaps the rich jetting is fouling the plugs and the spark can't light off the fuel/air mixture when I get on it from a stop.  :dunno:  I can tell you one thing, the car sure does go once it is rolling.  :burnout:
1969 (OO===]|[===OO)
1973 (OO/=====\OO) <---SOLD
1997 (O|||||O) <---SOLD

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Offline ntstlgl1970

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2007 - 02:24:32 PM »
Just a little more tuning and you will be there, it sounds pretty close now.
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline MyMopar

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2007 - 11:02:24 AM »
Some more tweaking and I still have problems off idle.  The car now stalls if a stomp on it, even rolling at 15mph if I get on it it will stall out. But if I feather it and rev it I can get of fthe line ok. I have 2 #31 squirters, I think I will try to drill the extra one out a tad and see what happens.  My best bet is to size the #31 holes and #40 holes and get a bit that is between the two sizes. 

I will say this, the brown spring is the right one.  I tried the purple and the car faultered a lot but still went.  Put the brown back in and from 80 to 110 it takes 5.5 seconds, and that is not full throttle, still have to adjust the linkage to get WOT.  My secondaries are only opening 2/3 by the distance my zip tie traveled on the shaft.
1969 (OO===]|[===OO)
1973 (OO/=====\OO) <---SOLD
1997 (O|||||O) <---SOLD

Smoke tires, not drugs!

kudakidd

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2007 - 11:46:42 AM »
Think pink! 99% of the time it's the best pump cam you can use. :thumbsup:

Offline MyMopar

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2007 - 03:09:44 PM »
Think pink! 99% of the time it's the best pump cam you can use. :thumbsup:
I'll drop the pink one in when I get home.
1969 (OO===]|[===OO)
1973 (OO/=====\OO) <---SOLD
1997 (O|||||O) <---SOLD

Smoke tires, not drugs!

Offline ntstlgl1970

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2007 - 03:25:06 PM »
And #2 hole on the cam, that should bring it in a little later timingwise
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline MyMopar

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2007 - 07:39:39 AM »
Ok guys I guess this is it.  Tried all teh pump cams and the one that worked the best was a bluish one.  This pump cam seems to be the only one that reaches full stroke, the others still have some way to go (anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 stroke left). 
This is where I'm at:
Thanks to Mike, I ordered and finally recv'd my OCtane booster from KemCo.  The stuff is great.  I advacned my timing to 16* idle and 36* total.  That alone I feel made a difference.  The car gets off the line much better, from a roll of 20 mph, if I nail it the tires go up in smoke,no more stalling.  There seems to be a little stumble as rpms climb, but I can't tell you in what range, maybe around 3000. 
I'm going to try to jet it correctly now and see what happens with the stumble.  I have a feeling the secondary jets are too big at 82.
Anyway, I'm much more pleased now and I appreciate the support you guys gave.  I also enjoyed the reading and learned a bit more too.  I'm still going to drill out the second squirter I have just to see if I can get that really crisp response.  However I think the gearing and converter I have are going to create a problem, until I switch gears (that are on the shelf) I will not fool around with the combo too much more.
Next step will be traction, I got to get the power to the ground and not up in smoke.
1969 (OO===]|[===OO)
1973 (OO/=====\OO) <---SOLD
1997 (O|||||O) <---SOLD

Smoke tires, not drugs!

Offline gomopar440

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2007 - 08:50:56 AM »
Next step will be traction, I got to get the power to the ground and not up in smoke.

Caltracs and a pinion snubber set 1/2" to 3/4" from the floor would be a good start.

Offline MyMopar

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Re: Choosing squirter size?
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2007 - 12:13:15 PM »
Caltracs and a pinion snubber set 1/2" to 3/4" from the floor would be a good start.
I've wondered how much space to have between the snubber and floor, thanks for the tip, I'll check on it.
1969 (OO===]|[===OO)
1973 (OO/=====\OO) <---SOLD
1997 (O|||||O) <---SOLD

Smoke tires, not drugs!