Author Topic: Willow Springs, Spring Fling, MATS 1600 mile road trip  (Read 193355 times)

Offline Tubbed440

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 318
  • Suspension NinJa
Re: 8/24 Fuel pump died
« Reply #540 on: August 25, 2010 - 06:16:14 PM »
Hang in there man.   Those pumps are pretty simple.  They should have you up and running again in no time. Think positive.  :2thumbs:
74 Dodge Challenger
500 inch stroker, Full cage, ladder bars,
coil-overs, 4L80E, 325/50 M/T DR's....street car!
(work in progress)




Offline conv340

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 331
    • Myspace CaMopar
Re: 8/24 Fuel pump died
« Reply #541 on: September 06, 2010 - 04:25:17 PM »
Good to see you got it fired up! I can totaly relate to all the little headaches.  :bricks1: I'm still fighting and learning.  :crying: Sounds good I can't wait to see it in person.  :cheers:
Two models, Two makes, One year, One body.

Offline ntstlgl1970

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2204
  • T a c o c a t
Re: 8/24 Fuel pump died
« Reply #542 on: October 17, 2010 - 09:45:32 PM »
I replaced the fuel pump and I've had it running off and on the last few weeks, put the old pump on ebay (replaced it with an SX pump). Then the upper to lower intake gasket failed. Finally got it apart today, and things have gone from bad to worse. A: the gasket failed because it's in an area with little clamping force. the same area on the other group of 4 ports is starting to fail in the same way. The only way I can see to fix it is try some different gasket material that is more substantial or cut the baseplate off the plenum and make it out of 3/8 instead of 1/4 inch material. That would be outside of the welding range of my tig machine.  :violin:  B: My lower intake is junk. Turns out it has some bad core shift - bad enough that I can't fix it short of starting over. The shiny object in the intake port is the valley pan that is gasket matched to the head and intake gasket, the top of the port in the intake is about 3/16-1/4" high. I was looking at the first pictures I took of the lower when I bought it, and it looked weird even then, I thought that the port alignment would be better when it was torqued down, turns out it barely changed at all.
Long story short. I ordered one of the edelbrock XT intakes and the throttle body to go with it. This sucks in a big way, though I'm out some money, the big thing is the amount of time (4 years off and on) I put into making this manifold work. UGH.
I'm having a few beers tonight!


« Last Edit: October 17, 2010 - 09:52:05 PM by ntstlgl1970 »
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline brads70

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 18747
Re: 10/17 - GM parts on the way....
« Reply #543 on: October 17, 2010 - 11:09:32 PM »
Just a thought... couldn't you weld bosses on the outside of the intake and plenum to get more clamping force? And/Or machine it for an o'ring instead of a gasket?
 Also looking at the mismatch of the head/intake,could you cut the intake so it would lower some?If not ( or a combo of both?) could you port the head to match the intake? It is on the high side! :thumbsup:
Never give up!!!! NEVER! :grinyes:......No problems only solutions! :icon16:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline ntstlgl1970

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2204
  • T a c o c a t
Re: 10/17 - GM parts on the way....
« Reply #544 on: October 18, 2010 - 02:10:27 AM »
I thought about adding bosses in the problem areas, but the port misalignment I can't do much about that. The bottom of the port is decent, the top is just way WAY off. I've taken this as far as I want to go with it. I should have spent more time making sure the lower was good originally. I know why I got such a good deal on that lower on Ebay now....  :walkaway:
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline brads70

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 18747
Re: 10/17 - GM parts on the way....
« Reply #545 on: October 18, 2010 - 07:26:14 AM »
The port misalignment looks to be up and down, no? Meaning if you cut the intake it will lower it and help to correct the alignment? When your engine was built maybe someone at some point cut the deck surface of the heads and didn't to the intake surface? Or not enough :dunno:
If your gonna pull off the intake, take off the gaskets then put the intake back on and check the alignment again, I'll bet it will improve?
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline the_engineers

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2639
  • Cheap, fast, reliable...pick 2
Re: 10/17 - GM parts on the way....
« Reply #546 on: October 18, 2010 - 09:53:47 AM »
I hate to see you give up on this.  Would Brad's approach cure the issue?
Brooks

1971 'Cuda 360
2004 Infiniti G35 6-spd Coupe
2001 Toyota Solara Convertible
2002 GMC Savana 1500 Explorer Hightop Conversion
1972 Dodge Dart Swinger...keeping the Slant.  Rocking the turbos.

Offline Tubbed440

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 318
  • Suspension NinJa
Re: 10/17 - GM parts on the way....
« Reply #547 on: October 19, 2010 - 10:27:09 PM »
An hour or so on the mill would fix that gasket problem.   Just fly cut'em and let it ride.   The port mis-alignment, well, you could do some more machining, and a little epoxy work.   It will take some time, but it could be made to work (just from what I can tell in the pics).   In person, there might be something there that I am not seeing.
74 Dodge Challenger
500 inch stroker, Full cage, ladder bars,
coil-overs, 4L80E, 325/50 M/T DR's....street car!
(work in progress)

Offline conv340

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 331
    • Myspace CaMopar
Re: 10/17 - GM parts on the way....
« Reply #548 on: October 19, 2010 - 10:44:57 PM »
Bummer about the intake issues. No buddy wants to see you give up on your cool custom intake. Especialy for a GM based off the shelf part  :eek4: But I understand sometimes you just want to move forward. My   :2cents: keep at it never give in never give up. Or maybe you can buy one from Tubbed440 his looks great  :stirpot:
Best of luck either way, can't wait to see it person. 
Two models, Two makes, One year, One body.

Offline ntstlgl1970

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2204
  • T a c o c a t
Re: 10/17 - GM parts on the way....
« Reply #549 on: October 20, 2010 - 12:14:43 PM »
An hour or so on the mill would fix that gasket problem.   Just fly cut'em and let it ride.   The port mis-alignment, well, you could do some more machining, and a little epoxy work.   It will take some time, but it could be made to work (just from what I can tell in the pics).   In person, there might be something there that I am not seeing.
The ports could be filled with epoxy and corrected, the bigger issue is the gasket, I don't think that there is enough mass in the bottom of the plenum to support the gasket area with the 1/4" material I built it out of. It really needs to be 3/8". If the gasket fails without me even putting any real heat into the engine (i.e. driving the car) I'm not confident that it won't fail again after some heat cycling. I have a dummy engine on the stand that I can use to play around with the base when I have some spare time. Ideally, I should have made more supporting material in the gasket area like I did for where the bolts attach, but i didn't and now it's all welded together.
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline brads70

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 18747
Re: 10/17 - GM parts on the way....
« Reply #550 on: October 20, 2010 - 12:53:36 PM »
For the gasket consider this...?
mill a .032"  o-ring channel in the intake all around the outside of the area you need to seal. The inside who cares if it leaks inside the manifold right?  Maybe spot face the screw hole you have in the middle for a small o'ring to seal if it's a concern? Then either get the right size o-ring ( .047" think standard) or buy a spool of o'ring cord and crazy glue the ends together ( make sure they are cut reasonably square) put a dab of silicone or gasket sealer on this joint. I for 25 year have built blow molds for plastic bottles and we use this method for water lines that see 90 psi and it doesn't leak!
 Your engine might at best pull what 20 psi?Being a captive o'ring it can't go anywhere!

For more clamping pressure for the intake and plenum, I'd use 5/16 fasteners? Get some round aluminum rod say 1/2" ?. Drill in the plenum where you want the bolts to be 4,6,8 places? weld the rod into these holes. then weld the same aluminum rod in the same locations on the intake.Mill everything flat again after welding. Use the flat head socket capscrews you have now to locate it together. Then drill through the 2 bosses( aluminum rods you just welded on the plenum and intake) with the tap drill size. Separate  the intake and plenum tap the plenum for the 5/16 ( or what ever size you chose?) and drill out the intake for the clearance size for 5/16 ( or whatever?) Then you can bolt it all together from the bottom of the intake( off the engine)

With the intake port mismatch, did you try it back on the engine your using without the gaskets yet? If it's better than all you have to do is cut the intake till it fits? Slot the mounting holes if you have to?  You have a mill and a welder right? No such thing as "won't fit" !


DONT GIVE UP! DON'T LET IT BEAT YOU! :bigsmile:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline ntstlgl1970

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2204
  • T a c o c a t
Re: 10/17 - GM parts on the way....
« Reply #551 on: October 20, 2010 - 02:55:50 PM »
Really, I appreciate all the encouragement from everyone and I may go back and mess with this some more but not at this time. I like the o-ring idea, but my biggest concern is still how thin the plenum base is, any machining/welding of it will either make it thinner or warp it really bad or both. Aluminum moves in all directions .0000012" per degree of temperature. More mass is better.

Just a couple of issues to note:

1. When I started the injection manifold (4-5 years ago), no one made a bolt on.
2. I can't weld anything thicker than 1/4" aluminum with a 200 amp tig welder successfully (i.e. 1/2" to 1/4", 3/8" to 1/4" etc.)
3. My bandsaw doesn't have a large enough throat to cut the base of the plenum off to replace or build up areas that need help
4. I don't have a mill

Good things that come of this:

1. Plumbing a single inlet is easier than two
2. I can add a MAF sensor (that I already have) easier
3. No gasket to leak
4. I know the edelbrock manifold will work
5. More options for placement of components/lines/wiring etc.

It's a good thing  :thumbsup:

For the gasket consider this...?
mill a .032"  o-ring channel in the intake all around the outside of the area you need to seal. The inside who cares if it leaks inside the manifold right?  Maybe spot face the screw hole you have in the middle for a small o'ring to seal if it's a concern? Then either get the right size o-ring ( .047" think standard) or buy a spool of o'ring cord and crazy glue the ends together ( make sure they are cut reasonably square) put a dab of silicone or gasket sealer on this joint. I for 25 year have built blow molds for plastic bottles and we use this method for water lines that see 90 psi and it doesn't leak!
 Your engine might at best pull what 20 psi?Being a captive o'ring it can't go anywhere!

For more clamping pressure for the intake and plenum, I'd use 5/16 fasteners? Get some round aluminum rod say 1/2" ?. Drill in the plenum where you want the bolts to be 4,6,8 places? weld the rod into these holes. then weld the same aluminum rod in the same locations on the intake.Mill everything flat again after welding. Use the flat head socket capscrews you have now to locate it together. Then drill through the 2 bosses( aluminum rods you just welded on the plenum and intake) with the tap drill size. Separate  the intake and plenum tap the plenum for the 5/16 ( or what ever size you chose?) and drill out the intake for the clearance size for 5/16 ( or whatever?) Then you can bolt it all together from the bottom of the intake( off the engine)

With the intake port mismatch, did you try it back on the engine your using without the gaskets yet? If it's better than all you have to do is cut the intake till it fits? Slot the mounting holes if you have to?  You have a mill and a welder right? No such thing as "won't fit" !


DONT GIVE UP! DON'T LET IT BEAT YOU! :bigsmile:
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline ShelbyDogg

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 5007
Re: 10/17 - GM parts on the way....
« Reply #552 on: October 20, 2010 - 04:51:02 PM »
Just a couple of issues to note:

4. I know the edelbrock manifold will work

I've been drooling over that Edelbrock manifold since it was anounced. I think you'll be happy with the flow and extra HP that Vic put into that thing.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline Tubbed440

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 318
  • Suspension NinJa
Re: 10/17 - GM parts on the way....
« Reply #553 on: October 21, 2010 - 09:26:42 PM »
That edelbrock piece, the victor EFI, is about 8. 5 inches tall, sans a throttle body.  Believe it or not, I made mine for this reason.....there was just no way to get a decent size air filter on top of a 4 barrel throttle body under the stock Rallye hood.   You may have more clearance than I have though.......and I'm sure you measured your clearance before you ordered it anyways.    :grinyes:
74 Dodge Challenger
500 inch stroker, Full cage, ladder bars,
coil-overs, 4L80E, 325/50 M/T DR's....street car!
(work in progress)

Offline ntstlgl1970

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2204
  • T a c o c a t
Re: 10/17 - GM parts on the way....
« Reply #554 on: October 22, 2010 - 01:55:27 PM »
I have not seen any installs of the XT manifold other than the dyno test on youtube. The manifold dips down on the front end. I did receive the throttle body already, but the intake is a week out. Latest update from summit is delivery next friday. I'm not holding my breath on that one.



i was upset enough that I just ordered the thing without measuring.....
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....