What's too much for the street?

[longgone]

Ok so hear me out and give me your thoughts.... 

I've owned quite a few "muscle cars" over the years and used to race an 1/8 mile drag car every weekend in the late 80s so I know what fast can feel like.  Fast to me doesn't always equal scary.  As long as it's controlled speed doesn't scare me.

However, maybe I'm just getting old??? 

Recently my 70" 440-6pk (built pretty strong) cuda has scared me.  Maybe I've not had a car with that much horsepower and torque on the streets.  I had it out this weekend and was doing some normal 0-whatever the road allows - straight run stretches leaving piles of smoke as the car fishtails the first few hundred feet of my launch.  That wasn't scary at all and I'm confident with keeping the car between the ditches (mostly).   

But when I was doing about 55 or 60 yesterday cruising and I decided to pass a car and laid into it... well the 6 pack kicked in at about the same time I dropped it down a gear (727 auto) and the back end broke loose at 60+ mph...    scared the #$@# out of me.  Much like driving on ice, it was an art to keeping it on the road and out of the ditches.  Maybe it's loss of control that scares me?

So I've been thinking since then...  Is there a limit on what's too much for the street?  I know the answer is no for some but honestly, I can't imagine anyone driving anything with more power than what my cuda has on the streets safely.  And if they did, it would seem they would have to nurse it every where they go and never really get the chance to unleash whats under the hood.

Ok, maybe I'm just getting old like I said before. 

Thoughts?
Blueglow

[nivvy]

I only ever drove a 13.5 E.T. 69' superbee before I built my current monster.... My 499 Challenger does however keep me paying attention ALL the times!  Just really depends on how you throttle it I guess.... you may have hit a puddle of water or something

[Carlwalski]

Good thread, I actually started a Poll on this topic several months back. The consensus I think was 500-550hp is about the limit for useful hp. My 'Cuda, I feel, maybe too much to thoroughly enjoy safely on the streets. I've talked to my shop about doing some decent mods to the rear end to get the best traction possible. My 'Cuda will be around 630hp running through a 5-Speed manual so it will take a bit of time and practise to get off the line smoothly under 3/4 to full throttle (aka not in a cloud of smoke) but I'll be fine. I just want to be able to use the car to it's potential and not worry about sliding out. I'll only be pushing this car out on the open road in safe conditions, ie: not in public and away from other road users in country lanes and back roads. My 0.02c 

[FJ5_440]

I think it depends on your version of "Street Use".  Breaking the rear tires loose at 60 can be discomforting, and probably even dangerous.  To steal a line from Spiderman- "With great power comes great responsibility".  I have driven some crazy cars, and you really need to pay attention to what you are doing when you can overpower the tires at freeway speeds.  On the other hand I also see drivers everyday that are dangerous behind the wheel of a Pruis. I think it has more to do with how much you are comfortable with.  Maybe you just need bigger stickier tires.

[Chryco Psycho]

this why most Vipers have been in accidents , there is no computer to save you & the power is awesome & too much for most peoples skills
 I built a strong 440+6 for a customer last year & it did the same thing kicked down with 6 bbls wide open & turned the car sideways at close to 60 MPH , he has no let it shift @ WOT since
 Personally I can & have had much more power & have no probl;ems controlling it but I know what to expect & have a ton of respect for what the power can do & enough self control to use it when I have lots of room , but I also drive on Ice up to 9 months / year & have no fear of it
It definatly demands repect & control & has a lot to do with you experience & comfort level , I generally find wickly fast cars boring to drive but that is me

[hemi71]

 

I've had some pretty quick cars in my life, but nothing I was ever afraid of. But the key term is RESPECT, as in you have to respect the power a well built hemi or Big block (or small block for that matter) put's out and give giving that car your full attention.

Friend of mine sold an ACR Viper he had a few years back. He told me that of all the cars he had ever owned (and he had some serious cars, IE a blown rat motor willys) that ACR viper was the only car that ever scared him. He said that car was scary fast, and being an ACR was real "twitchy" and in rain, he said it was just a bear to drive. The vipers just make so much torque, and the curve comes on so quick (like 400 lbs/ft at 1800RPM) they are not a car for the meek. Best deal for a new viper owner is to go to a driving school, so you can learn how to drive the car correctly.

[Chryco Psycho]

Vipers should come with a mandatory driving course IMO

[longgone]

   d**n you all!  Now you've got me wanting to buy a Viper..... 

Blueglow

[BIGSHCLUNK]

I'd play it safe and sell me your car!   

[71340RT]

My wife told me to sell my 70 440-6 4-speed Cuda back in 1989 for the same reason as it scared the he!! out of her. It was a car to respect with all the power it had and would break the tires loose at 60mph even with the biggest BFGoodrich radial TA's I could fit under the rear end. I loved driving it and had learned what it could do and how to control it and my foot on the gas pedal. I have missed that Cuda and it's power everysince I sold it in 1989.

[Chryco Psycho]

pick up a used Viper for pretty reasonable now

[Robert1050]

I think it all goes down to knowing your vehicle & your abilities. 

As a wise old street-cop once said "A man's gotsa know his limitations", as he re-holsters his Model 29 S&W.

I've owned a lot of high HP vehicles and driven a lot more, you just gotta learn what the loud pedal is going to do.  My old 440-6 'cuda was notorious for going sideways at street speeds, I just learned to correct real well and real quick.

[Grasshopper]

I've had some pretty quick cars in my life, but nothing I was ever afraid of. But the key term is RESPECT, as in you have to respect the power a well built hemi or Big block (or small block for that matter) put's out and give giving that car your full attention.

Friend of mine sold an ACR Viper he had a few years back. He told me that of all the cars he had ever owned (and he had some serious cars, IE a blown rat motor willys) that ACR viper was the only car that ever scared him. He said that car was scary fast, and being an ACR was real "twitchy" and in rain, he said it was just a bear to drive. The vipers just make so much torque, and the curve comes on so quick (like 400 lbs/ft at 1800RPM) they are not a car for the meek. Best deal for a new viper owner is to go to a driving school, so you can learn how to drive the car correctly.

I'm a Viper owner who is now building his first muscle car (1973 Challenger).  I am a complete newbie to original muscle cars and mechanics so I appreciate all the help you guys have given me.  With regards to the Viper - I got the car in May 2007 and just spent my first season driving it.  I think I read every disaster story I could before I bought the car.  One article quoted about 1/3 of all viper wrecks happen during the first 2 months of ownership.  It scared the crap out of me but I read every horror story and still do just to remind myself of the power, what I am driving, and to respect what is there.

If you drive a "stock" Viper like a regular car, it drives like a regular car.  You have to be careful of the wide tires, the grooves in roads pull you from side to side without warning so you have to be really alert.  Can be quite twitchy but I also live in Montreal and we have the worse roads in North America so that doesn't help.  I would never drive it in the rain. 

For more spirited driving - If you really want to get on it you better be damn sure you are pointed straight.  The challenge with these cars is it is not easy to tell as soon as the rear is going out on you and by the time you realize, it is too late.  These cars are very hard to correct once the rear is gone.  I don't care who you are, it is not easy to get them back.  For some reason they have a reputation of not cornering well, where quite the opposite is true, they corner like they are on train tracks.  It is inexperience or new drivers taking the exit or highway entry ramps too fast that keep crashing.  It is where most accidents on these cars take place.

Like many of you on this board, I consider myself a good driver.  But....I am taking driving courses next Spring.  All macho aside....this car requires respect.

If anyone else is interested in purchasing a Viper or just wants to know more about it, I would be happy to answer any questions.  The Viper VCA forum is a great bunch of guys and filled with Mopar lovers especially Chally's and Cuda's.  You'll find a lot of love there!!  It was the reason I decided to try and build one and how I found this site.

[HP2]

The challenge with these cars is it is not easy to tell as soon as the rear is going out on you and by the time you realize, it is too late.  These cars are very hard to correct once the rear is gone.  I don't care who you are, it is not easy to get them back. 

All macho aside....this car requires respect.

Amen to that, brother! I had Viper hand me my behind at the track one evening once the rear got loose. It started out as a darn good pass too, but about 500 feet out at 80 mph it broke loose and took me for a looping ride that thrilled everyone in the grandstands. My buddy said it started hazing the tires right off the line. I was steadily backing out of the throttle because I could feel them spinning, but it was not far enough fast enough to satisfy the car and around I went.

To the original post, any large duration cam like your looking at will be kind of a pain to live with on the street, especially if it is carbed and doesn't use EFI. I've got a 300 duration cam in one of my engines and the sucker won't idle worth a hill of beans below 1800 rpm. Equating that to street driving would be like driving around with your car on high idle all the time, which could be pretty annoying. The high idle and overlap will also make it kind of noxious smelling at idle as well. Again, another drawback to a big cammed and carbed street car.

[Carlwalski]

I really enjoy reading yours posts HP2, you certainly know your stuff. You bring up an interesting point and one I'm curious about. How much does the cam effect drivabilty in terms of power progression? Like, a stock to very mild cam won't kick in as much as a wild cam would or is it to do with the power curve more, like, a cam that's designed to perform at 1,000-5,000rpm will spin up more than a cam designed to run at 2,500-6,000rpm?

The reason I ask is because my Hemi although making good hp is very stock in terms of it's capability. Being a 540ci engine running EFI it's "only" making 620-630hp which for that size engine is basically a walk in the park. My cam is very mild and I only have small 42lb injectors plus Tim @ FHO tuned the EFI system to have a very slight delay so the power is applied in duration, not all at once like a carb, minimal in terms of seat of the pants but I feel without it traction could be a lot worse. I'm just thinking ahead for the build in terms of ways to get the best traction and streetability.