Author Topic: Quench question.  (Read 3164 times)

Offline Bueller1

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Quench question.
« on: December 16, 2007 - 03:12:01 AM »
So I was looking at my engine spec sheet & noticed that the pistons are .020 in the hole.Now with the head gaskets being .039 thick compressed I have  a .059 quench clearance.Engine is assembled on the stand,would it be worth it to tear it apart & have it zero decked or run it as is.440, MP .528 cam,edelbrock 84cc heads.Thanks for any help :clueless:




Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Quench question.
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2007 - 04:59:02 AM »
not really , the quench is effective to .60 at least
 depending what headgaskets you are using I would replace them down the road with Cometic .28 gaskets , these will never fail & increase the quench effectiveness

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

nivvy

  • Guest
Re: Quench question.
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2007 - 08:23:57 AM »
You must be running felpro 1009 .039 head gaskets as I am as well...
If mine ever go bad I am going to try the cometics but I have also heard bad about them not sealing properly if you block aint smooth etc...

On the race car we run we also run 1009's with indy heads and no prblems to date either and it runs 8.80's on motor...

I have also been told .040 - .060 is a good quench range...

Cometics are exspensive $$$

Also I run a 7PSI Raidator cap for extra head gasket protection!

.528 cam with 1.6 rockers is .561 lift and I personnally think that is the best mopar solid cam ever made for the street  :burnout:
« Last Edit: December 16, 2007 - 10:03:47 AM by StRoKer »

Offline matt63

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1855
Re: Quench question.
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2007 - 05:54:18 PM »
If you've got open chamber heads I don't think you'll get the quench effect anyway.  The Cometic gaskets require remachining the heads and block to get a smoother surface finish.
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD

Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Quench question.
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2007 - 12:59:52 AM »
the 84 cc Eddyd do have a large closed chamber [what this accomplishes I have no Idea But ] you can get quench at least

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline moper

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2368
Re: Quench question.
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2007 - 04:00:52 PM »
I think you posted elsewhere. You can ignore it and it is at the very outside edge of doing any good. Or, you can take it apart and cut the block. Or, you can simply run teh MP steel gakstes with some copper spray None of these are perferct solutions to a mistake in machining, but the last one's cheapest, gets you in "the zone" of positive results, and will do only a small amount of damage over time to the heads. So I'd go with choice #3 myself.

Offline Bueller1

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Re: Quench question.
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2007 - 01:17:30 AM »
Yep moper I did post elsewhere also.Just looking for the most info out there.I already have the steel shim mopar head gaskets but haven't had time to put them on yet.My focus has been a 66 Belvedere II I'm picking up tomorrow :jumping:.Thanks for the responses guys! :wave:

Offline cudabob496

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Quench question.
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2008 - 05:20:48 PM »
If you've got open chamber heads I don't think you'll get the quench effect anyway.  The Cometic gaskets require remachining the heads and block to get a smoother surface finish.


What is the quench effect?
thanks
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Quench question.
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2008 - 05:52:08 PM »
buy having he cylinder head in the .040-.060 range it creates a high velocity pressure wave towards the spark plug this will decrease the possibilty of detonation , with an open chamber head without a carefully shaped dome piston you cannot create quench as the piston & head are approx .130+ apart at TDC , I have seen detonation exist in even low compression engines using open chamber heads & try never to use any open chamber design hea &

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline cudabob496

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Quench question.
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2008 - 08:54:35 PM »
buy having he cylinder head in the .040-.060 range it creates a high velocity pressure wave towards the spark plug this will decrease the possibilty of detonation , with an open chamber head without a carefully shaped dome piston you cannot create quench as the piston & head are approx .130+ apart at TDC , I have seen detonation exist in even low compression engines using open chamber heads & try never to use any open chamber design hea &

When I built my engine (with a lot of help) I went with zero deck height and reverse dome JE pistons. I was told that was good as far as making power, but also having little chance of detonation. I just did what I was told, after I got a lot of opinions.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline moper

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2368
Re: Quench question.
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2008 - 09:42:46 AM »
Like CP said.."quench" refers to the space between the bottom of a combustion chamber (otherwise known as the piston's dome) and the roof of a combustion chamber (otherwise known as the head's chamber). The quench effect is what you may hear called "squish". And as CP said, a tight quench means as the piston comes up on compression, the last part of the stroke motion squeezes the mixute out of the quench area towards the spark plug, which mixes the mixture more evenly, helps get rid of liquid fuel in the chamber that falls out of suspension and causes detonation, and lets that mix burn faster and more completely, so you dont need as high an octane, or as much timing advance. Anythign past .050 will cause the effect to lessen. Beyond .060, it's not doing anything for you. In terms of steel rods, closer than .030 is flirting with problems. So there's not much room for error when you build for it. But the rewards are very much worth the extra attention it requires.

Offline cudabob496

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Quench question.
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2008 - 05:18:44 PM »
Like CP said.."quench" refers to the space between the bottom of a combustion chamber (otherwise known as the piston's dome) and the roof of a combustion chamber (otherwise known as the head's chamber). The quench effect is what you may hear called "squish". And as CP said, a tight quench means as the piston comes up on compression, the last part of the stroke motion squeezes the mixute out of the quench area towards the spark plug, which mixes the mixture more evenly, helps get rid of liquid fuel in the chamber that falls out of suspension and causes detonation, and lets that mix burn faster and more completely, so you dont need as high an octane, or as much timing advance. Anythign past .050 will cause the effect to lessen. Beyond .060, it's not doing anything for you. In terms of steel rods, closer than .030 is flirting with problems. So there's not much room for error when you build for it. But the rewards are very much worth the extra attention it requires.

So where does "zero deck height" fit in with this explanation?
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Quench question.
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2008 - 05:21:14 PM »
if the piston is brought flush to the block [zero deck height ] & you use the gasket for spacing to get quench you need a closed chamber head to make it work unless the piston is domed to go above the deck & get within .060 of the head

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

nivvy

  • Guest
Re: Quench question.
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2008 - 05:21:46 PM »
personally I think people zero deck their block to get more compression.... however a zero deck and a .040 gsket is ideal quench...


Offline moper

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2368
Re: Quench question.
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2008 - 07:44:12 AM »
No, zero deck does a couple things. Like CP said again, the math is easier...lol. Second, there is less wasted space above the top ring (this area never burns and doesnt produce power. So the smaller it is the better) Third, the piston is designed for a certain height deck surface. Mopar factory maching is crap. If it was flat, it was good enough. That's why the "10.5:1 compression" ratings are a joke. It also has a side effect of keeping everything else correct when the decks are parallel to the crank and flat. When the decks were originally milled, they were cut on a milling wheel. Because it's a wheel, the center will always be cut deeper than the edges, as the milling head has to be angled, or the cutters will hit as they pass accross the surface and they may chatter. It's not much, typically in the .0015" range. But I've had blocks with decks where the center was .017" taller than the blueprint spec, one edge of one end was .024" taller, and the opposite corner on the opposite end was .029" taller. These had been "milled" during a "performance build". The RB wedge blueprint spec is 10.725 IIRC, and I think one out of ten or so I've used was even in the 10.72? area. Most are 10.74+ from the factory. So you buy a good forged piston, the deck is milled flat, and then put together, and your ) deck just went to recessed .015+. If you were building for quench, that would be a problem. Which is why every engine I do, regardless of size or output, gets the mains align honed, and the block square decked to the height I need. The better block equipment now uses the main bore centerline and the camshaft bore centerline to index the decks. Old millers use a machinists level and someone's eye.