Do I even NEED all this? Am I going over the top?

[ViperMan]

Alright, I've been READING - I've been studying and searching and scanning the web and reading books...

I've come a helluva long way in just a month preparing for the acquisition of this 440 engine.  I know what I want to do with it.  I actually know what I want the car to be able to do power wise, safety wise - I've even organized my priorities in order of A) Reliability B) Power/Performance C) Cost.  Usually cost would come first for me, but since this is going to be such a long, drawn-out project, Cost will just sorta work itself out - ya know?

But now I'm reading about compression ratios, combustion chamber size, open vs. closed heads, quench, scavaging...

I'm studying porting, valve jobs, decking, boring, cutting...  The hundreds of thousands of possibilities that can be created just by a simple trip to the machine shop...

Yeah the differences can range from $500 to $5000 dollars just for the block and head work...  But do I NEED TO??!?!

I want 550 to 600 horsepower out of my 440.  I already know I need to beef up a 727 (after I GET a 727) and probably need a Dana 9" with some sort of a locker or posi-trak (haven't even GOTTEN into that mess yet - that'll come late in the project.)

Really my question is, if I go to Ray Barton and spend a few thousand to have my engine and heads seriously overhauled, get that "perfect" compression, "perfect" quench, get the right stroke and intake and exhaust, am I going to blow my 600 horsepower out of the water?  Am I going above and beyond for what my goals need?

I mean everyone says "500 is pretty easy."  How "hard" is 600?  Should I even GO 600?  I mean these motors can turn 1000hp I'm sure with enough money, but I don't WANT that kind of power.  I don't want to sink the thousands of dollars into the transmission and differential to keep that on the ground.  I also don't want 20-inch wide rear tires!

I think I'm learning too much.    Or maybe too fast...

I'm not looking for the answer but if you were looking for my kind of output - my kind of performance, would you be going to Ray Barton and buying premium parts?  Or would say my local machine shop in Harrisburg fit the bill, and 440Source components?

Just lookin' for here...

Jeff

[The Cuda Guy]

NO!  Stick to what Neil has been telling you, go with the local machine shop, go .030-040 over, go with a beefy cam (not roller) get some worked Indy Heads roller rockers ect. like 4C has get the 512 Stroke kit with 10:1 to 10.5:1  pistons (Pump Gas w/Alum Heads) from 440 Source and you should end up with 518 ci engine pushing 550hp which is plenty! All that other is just a waste of $$$ in the end and lets not forget you still got to figure in trans and new rear ect.  Save all that ray barton crap and get a trans and a good dana rear just my 

[KellysCuda aircard]

I agree    but I would go with roller valve train, its worth the extra money, and the extra power. and if your only 600 hp you can still use a 8.75 rear end with a locker of course.

[go-fish]

There is a reason they say the power is in the heads. You won't be too much into by going with a nice non-forged ratating assembly. Forged is another word for $$$$.
I think you should go with a 440-Source stroker kit, I think they're under $2K, and go with a set of really good heads. Good heads don't have to be expensive. Everyday there are people that have a set of heads they are "growing" out of and looking to upgrade to Edelbrocks or Predators or the sort.
There are alot of good used sets that pop up on moparts.com often. I don't frequent there very often but it is the place for hi-po used parts in thier For Sale section.
You can also get good used intakes off there too. Top end parts are parts that people often upgrade, even if those parts are already upgraded. Some folks are searching for parts to replace there performance parts on the quest for bigger power and you can take them off thier hands cheap so they will have a little scratch to get that even more expensive, more hi-po part.
I don't have any particular BB parts off the top of my head because I am into SB's. Find out what head and intake combo you want based on the cam, more particularly intake manifold, and start looking in the "For Sale" sections.

[Chryco Psycho]

I just built a 512 440 Source stroker for a friend & we discussed this same thing for hours to make sure he got enough power from the combo , we ended up using ported 915 heads , a 586 lift lunati split profile cam at 10 :1 compression , it has the 833 OD & a Dana 3.54 , he cannot leave the line Without spinning the ires a bit & he is scard to push it past 50% throttle so far ... it pulls Very hard & makes something in the 550 Hp range & maybe close to 600 ft lbs tq

[ViperMan]

The heads are the part that's killin' me right now - I just can't decide what to do...

I REALLY don't want to go aluminum - I KNOW that's what "everyone else" is doing, and I know they can flow "a little" better.  But I simply DO NOT want to be resealing head gaskets.  I just don't want the headache.

I REALLY want to get my 902's ported, polished, and get a good work-over on the valves and guides, bigger exhaust port like Neil suggested, and then put in GOOD parts.

There are just SO MANY routes you can take with heads, and I KNOW the impact they make on the project, but I also know they can make the difference between having this done in 5 years verses 10 years, mainly just on cost!

I need those little plastic capsules that you just put in warm water and *poof* you have an engine.  (Or a dinosaur - that could lend itself to new problems...)  

Jeff

[Chryco Psycho]

not true really , the cost to build a set of Iron heads properly vs a set of Eddy or 440 source heads is very close to the same which is why so many people use Eddy heads , even getting good Indy or Brodix heads is not far out of line , I just ordered Brodix for a customer @ 1150 each which is still less then double the cost of doing factory Iron heads  , Cometic gaskets will keep the alum heads sealed , I would seriously be looking for 915 heads if you want to use iron though

[The Cuda Guy]

If the issue is the heads go with a good set of iron heads port them out to the max and be done with it, get a good 9.5:1 piston and your good.  You dont HAVE to have alum heads.

Cuda Guy

[Chryco Psycho]

   you can make plenty of power without alum heads & they are a relatively easy swap later

[ViperMan]

Delving back into the question of quench (which I have to wonder how incredibly important it is with a 550-600hp engine) can you not duplicate a similar effect with a domed-top piston?  I realize valve clearance is very important of course...

Jeff

[cudabob496]

You want 600 hp, then I think you better stroke that 440 to around 500 cu inches. Otherwise, you'll need to put a lot more money into the engine than you would just by buying a stroker crank.

[The Cuda Guy]

Jeff,

I get the feeling your trying to squeeze 600hp out of Don Moore budget, I feel you trust me!  But do you need 600 hp?  I mean Carl's 540 Hemi makes 660 hp and he spent a lot of money on it.  Granted that thing could make close to a thousand hp but that is another story.  With what I think is to be your budget and its a SWAG here I think you can get a 500hp iron headed stroked 440.  Just dont get too elabroate.  Stay simple.  Intake Holly SD, Heads 915, Stroke Kit, Machine Work, Big Cam, Carb ect.  Trust me I think you will be very happy with this 440!  You dont have to feel like you can suck Carlwalski up one pipe and blow him out the other you know what I mean?  Unless...  That is ablsutly what you HAVE to have!!!  BOTTOM LINE!  I think your getting wraped around this number 600.  But its all good bro this is just me talking.  Its only advice.  Save the money and get your car on the road, I think you will be just as happy.

Cuda Guy   

[Chryco Psycho]

  keep it simple , the 440 source heads could be a good idea & should be cheaper than finding & rebuilding & porting 915 heads , the 440 source heads are closed chamber but with a large volume combustion chamber , you will have to talk to Brandon to get the right piston to acheive approx 10.8:1 compression for pump gas use with a 512ci  package

[KellysCuda aircard]

If you stay around the 500 hp mark you will save lots on other parts as well. I think the factory 727 will hold 500 ponies.

[ViperMan]

Okay, lemme ask a few questions I had been wondering but not wanting to start 3 different topics for:

First of all, these Cometic gaskets - you've mentioned them many times Chrycho - are they really going to make a significant difference?  I just know that the first time I have to rip this all apart to replace a leaking gasket I'm going to be    I work at a dealership - I know all about maintenance.  But I want the most maintenance-free set-up I can build.

Second, boring the cylinders - I've seen many reports saying that .030 is the most you can bore a big block.  I've even seen .020 as the maximum you can safely cut these.  Being that reliability and low maintenance is key, should I maintain stock bore if the block is already in good condition?  Is the .030 bore going to make a huge difference if I still stroke it?  Can I even stroke the engine withOUT boring it?

And as far as stroking goes, I understand the rod ratios that have been discussed (like I said I did some searching,) and I don't want to go excessive on the stroke.  I originally wasn't going to do any.  Since then I settled comfortably on the 500 stroke (which requires the .030 boring) because it'll give me the power I want (from what I've read) without compromising reliability and longevity.  Is the 512 necessary?  Or, is the difference in reliability negligible that I can do the 512 without worrying?  I mean the kit prices from 440 are the same.  I understand the factory oil pickup might need tweaked, which from the sounds of it is NBD.

I know it's a lot to answer at once.  I'm just trying to put the pieces together, ya know?

10.8:1 compression - that was going to be another question.  I was actually thinking closer to an even 10 might be better if I want to run a little nitrous - what do you think, Neil?

And hey Chrycho, while I'm thinking - if you ever installed Diamond pistons into an engine, would they be "Neil's Diamonds?"

Sorry - needed a laugh...  

Jeff