Do I even NEED all this? Am I going over the top?

[Chryco Psycho]

I am typing as slow as I can 

[Chryco Psycho]

Duh ... of course

[ViperMan]

My strategy was going to go a little differently - my plan is to build up the money to buy a part - get it, then build up the money to get another part.

The way my wife and I work, any "savings" we build up just gets blown - either on some emergency situation or some stupid thing we probably don't really need.

It's a problem.

We're working on it.

But in the meantime, if I can make small little wins here and there, the project can flow and build.  If I just try to lump sum it in a few years when I've built up the money, well, it'll probably never happen.  That's how so many classics end up sittin' in people's yards - they're waiting for the money.  It'll never come.

Jeff

[go-fish]

  That's how so many classics end up sittin' in people's yards - they're waiting for the money.  It'll never come.

That is very true in many cases. I look at it this way: Food/clothes OR hotrod parts. Who needs to eat that bad anyway?

[73EStroker]

Sorry to be so mundane here - but I remember when a 440 (or 454 or 429) was a big motor that got lots of reliable horsepower here. Use your bone stock 440 setup with forged flat top pistons, balance the sucker, good cam like Neil suggests (lunati VooDoo) good timing gears and adjustable valve train to get the best setup. Run the engine with stock cleaned up heads, good timing gear set, Hollley SD manifold, TTI headers, good ignition setup and the right carb like 850 minimum. I would put money on that combo that you will get a shock when you floor it and will realise if you are on a budget you can't "waste" many thousands of dollars chasing a pie in the sky. I went way overkill building my 451 stroker with the best of everything and now $13000 later............... they have a law up here  :canada:that is called stunting. That means the slightest tire chirp on takeoff if the cop wants to get serious. So maybe a lot of $$$$ for nothing on my part.
Good torque converter, fresh 727 and 3.55 gears and you have a ripper for probably less than $5000 total. Remember (maybe) when guys with nice well tuned little 340s used to take on the Hemis? I do and saw a lot win. Remember a well balanced package beats just a big honking motor most of the time.

My son has a 4000lb Dodge Charger 73 Rallye. It has a mildly worked 440 in it and 3.91 SG. That thing buries you in the seat when you floor it.

Anyway my 100 pesos worth. Good Luck with whatever you end up with.

[74 340 4speed]

My strategy was going to go a little differently - my plan is to build up the money to buy a part - get it, then build up the money to get another part.

That is the way it works with me...save a little here, buy a part, save some there, buy a part.  I've been saving to build my 406 since the summer of 2005.  However, the motor will be filled with the good stuff and everything will be new but the block and main caps.  Like others have mentioned, if you want to get 600 hp easily, build a stroker motor and go with aluminum heads.  Running stock casting iron heads would save money, but there would be costs associated with extensive porting and polishing to get them up to specs.  Most of the aluminum heads are CNC'ed now and have very nice runners/combustion chambers.  Not to mention, the weight savings of aluminum over iron. 
With all that HP, you'll have to make sure that the drivetrain can handle the hp.  Before I spent one penny on my motor, I finished everything from the firewall back.  I started at the rear, and installed an eaton posi, motive gears, new bearings and seals.  Then I upgraded my stock monoleaf springs to a stout set of multileafs.  Next, I put a set of competition engineering traction bars, and subframe connectors on the car, along with new bushings all the way around.  Then I replaced the gas tank with a new one and upgraded to a 3/8" sending unit and fuel line.  Next I swapped from an auto trans to a 4 speed, using all new parts, and finally I sealed it off with a custom denny's HP driveshaft.  600 HP in that 'Cuda body is some serious power, and it can do a lot of twisting.  I would definately install subframe connectors.  I've seen many cars twist so violently that where the quarter meets the bottom of the roof has cracked 1" or more.  I've also seen cars crack the glass too.
I've found out that saving and buying parts a little along is good because you have more time to think about your setup, ask questions about it, and sometimes even better parts become available.  Do a search on the internet for free engine dyno programs.  I've gotten several off the net myself, such as engine analyzer, comp cams cam quest engine dyno, and dyno 2000.  Pick out a combination, build it, and see what each program says you'll make.  The more variables you can manipulate, usually the better/more accurate the outcome of your combination.  If you have around 7.8-8.3:1 dynamic compression ratio, you should be able to run pump gas just fine.  The static compression numbers you are used to seeing, 10:1, 9.5:1, 11:1, really don't mean anything.  Depending on what camshaft you pick, you will be able to bleed off a certain amount of that static compression thus yielding a certain dynamic compression.  There are also free dynamic compression calculators on the net as well.  The one I found was written by Pat Kelley.

[EVIL72]

the 902 can work but it will cost more for the stroker kits as I do not believe Brandon has a quench dome piston available , the 902 will have decent potential but typically $500 for porting , $450 for machining including hard seats for the exhaust , + valves,  retainers & locks $400 + valve springs $150 -250 = approx $1500 , how much are Brandons heads complete ?

The 440source heads are $899.00 a set fully assembled and ready to bolt on, I'd still have them checked out though. But those sound like a pretty killer deal!
 I wish they had these when I dumped a ton of money into my stock heads.

[nivvy]

New built 8 3/4 for sale  can deliver to carlilse..... free delivery,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 

[ViperMan]

Yeah I guess I'm leaning in the direction of the 440 Source heads - assuming that A) they're as good as they say they're going to be, and B) that these Cometic gaskets are as good as someone says they are... 

They also have the option of buying one head at a time - probably a waste of money, but if I'm having a hard time hittin' that $900 mark, I can split it up.

I'm still thinking I'm going to buy them bare, have them ported, then assemble my own parts.  That'll split the costs up even more.

PA. allegedly has some "gross display of horespower" fine they can levy on drivers, but I've never heard of anyone receiving it.  Traffic is so crazy around Harrisburg I'll never be able to cut her loose in town anways.  I guess that's why I want to build her for mild strip usage, so that I can have fun with her legally and actually win a few races. 

You guys have helped me answer some big questions.  I definitely don't think I'm going to bother with Ray Barton - nothing against them at all, but they're going to cost me a lot more money, and after speaking with them, they seem like the "we prefer to do everything ourselves and charge more for it" type.  Nothing wrong with that, but I want this to be MY project.  Not something I pay someone else to do.

The local machine shop will work fine, especially if I go with the 440Source heads, which will require minimum porting work.

I've also decided to go with the 512 stroker kit, and will probably go ahead and bore out the cylinders .030 over.  This will make my piston selection much easier as it gives a wide range of options.  If I go with the 440Source heads, I'm going to try to get a decent quench, but I don't think I'm going to bust my a$$ to get it "just right."

Whereas I don't disagree with the theory of "do everything behind the firewall first," I'm going to focus on building the engine first.  I won't have it DONE before I have at least some or most of the parts needed for the car itself - T-bars, A-arms, diff, axle, trans, but I think that focusing on the engine and getting it pretty much "done" will keep the drive alive to finish everything else.  I'm going to struggle very hard to keep "motivated" over the years that it'll take to get this done.  I never intend on having a "project car" for sale on Ebay or Craigslist.

I've even thought of picking up a beater A-body 'cuda once I get started on all this so that I have something else to drive around and "inspire" me to finish my fire breather.  That'll come much later though.

I also want to get my engine done first because I want my dad to help me build it.  He's not exactly "old," but I would hate to lose the chance to do this with him.  Building an engine is something he always wanted to do, but never had the knowledge or the opportunity.  I started talking to him about this over the New Year weekend, and he got so excited...  (Of course then he tells me I need to watch my finances and to not get my engine...  Good thing I only partially listen to my old man.  )

I'm lookin' up some other stuff now - I'll have more questions soon. 

Jeff

[Swedefish]

Decisions, decisions. I can relate to your situation.
Build the 512 stroker and put it in a gen II A-body,

[ViperMan]

Hey Neil,

I was just browsin' the 440source page some more (actually comparing prices with other, ala carte options) and saw that with the flat-top pistons, an 88cc chamber runs a compression of 10.89 with the 512 stroker, bored .030 over.  Isn't that the magic number you were aiming for?  With 84cc chambers, it's almost 11.3.  That's gonna be high to run pump gas with some N2O...

...Wouldn't it?

Dished pistons can give me 10.05.

I guess the question really is, what's more important - compression, or quench? 

By the way if I run a flat-top piston, 84cc heads (440Sources) and a 500 stroke at .030 over, I'll have 10.85 compression, and probably the right amount of quench...

Jeff

[go-fish]

Quench is more important. Quench goes a long way toward preventing detonation. You want to stay away from detonation at all costs. You can still have detonation with perfect quench if you do something like advance the timing alot but wanting to run nitrous you should'nt be going for such high compression, especially if it's almost too high for pump premium.
Not entirely sure but 10.85/ tight quench would be what I would feel comfortable with shooting nitrous, no higher. I wouldn't play with the spray unless you do head studs and MLS gaskets.
Sorry, not Neil.

[Chryco Psycho]

I agree that quench is more important , Brandon has some new pistons that are not listed on the wedsite yet , that fall between the choices listed , ideally you want to be in the 10.4-10.8 range & use a head that works with the piston choice to acheive that . Actual compression can be controlled as the block deck is always taller then the spec so by milling the deck down you can lower compression slightly by leaving the deck higher than spec , but this compromises quench if the deck is left too tall 
I also aree with 73 E stroker that a good 440 will be lots but when I crunch the #s I end up cheaper using the 512 kit over rebuilding the stock parts & buying just the pistons , rings& brgs so you might as well just build the 512

[ViperMan]

From the looks of it, the heads from 440Source are still open - at 84cc, that's not much of a difference.  Is it going to be possible to get good quench out of those?  Or am I really going to have to stomp around looking for something like the 915's and paying out the a$$ for them?

Jeff

And Neil - you win.  I'm going to build the 512.    It's already in my little notebook!

[Chryco Psycho]

I knew you had decided to go 512 , just that 73E was suggesting just rebuilding the 440
the 84 cc heads still use closed chamber design just a large volume combustion chamber