Author Topic: Answer ONE question about backspacing!  (Read 3869 times)

Offline ViperMan

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Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« on: February 26, 2008 - 10:20:03 AM »
I know it's been asked to death, but I just need clarification:

Backspacing - the LESS backspacing, the FURTHER OUT the wheel sits, right?!?  More backspacing puts the bolt surface of the wheel closer to the outer edge of the wheel, thus moving the actual wheel TOWARDS THE CENTER OF THE CAR, whereas less backspacing means the bolt surface is towards the center of the wheel, moving the wheel AWAY FROM THE CENTER OF THE CAR...   Right?!?!?!?!

So if the = characters denotes the axle, and the | character is the bolt surface of the wheel - the part that mates against the axle - and the [  ]'s are the wheel itself, then:

:this would be MINIMUM backspacing
===[|  ]

:and this would be MAXIMUM backspacing
==[  |]

Am I right or wrong?  If I'm WRONG, please explain why!!  :)

Jeff
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Offline GoodysGotaCuda

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Re: Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2008 - 10:23:29 AM »

:this would be MINIMUM backspacing
===[|  ]

:and this would be MAXIMUM backspacing
==[  |]

#1 is say 1" backspacing, #2 is say 6" backspace
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Offline ViperMan

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Re: Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2008 - 10:27:52 AM »
So in otherwords I'm right?  Dammit man yes or no PLEASE!  :)

lol just kiddin'.  I'm trying to juggle these numbers in my head and smoke's pourin' outta my ears...  :)

What I'm worrying about is that 3.75 inches backspace might be tight, but the only way to fix it is to mill the bolt surface of the wheels.  If you have too MUCH backspace, you could always use spacers.  You can't fix the other way around though - too little, too bad.
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Offline HP2

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Re: Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2008 - 11:35:43 AM »
You are on the right track. Now I'll throw a new term at you; offset. Too much backspace, or postive offset, will cause the tire to contact the wheel opening, tearing up tires and potentially mangling sheetmetal. More back space, or negative offset,  will put the tire closer to the spring pack. Also don't forget that you have less room on teeh rear segment of the spring than you do on the front. If you are taking measurements, use the portion of the spring BEHIND the axle to determine your requirements.

Also consider this, the tire moves up and down past the wheel lip. The wheel moves up and down with the spring. This means you want more clearance to the wheel lip side than you would need to the spring pack side.

Offline ViperMan

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Re: Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2008 - 12:47:49 PM »
Absolutely.

Offset seems to be a common term used on newer cars, whereas backspace is relied on more with older cars.  At least that's my observation.

I'm keeping the same size rim (width and diameter) as what I currently have, so in theory if I maintain the same amount of backspace, I should be fine.  Being that these rims I'm buying are a common size for common applications, I have reason to suspect their sizing is identical to what I have.  But I'm going to measure to be sure.  My quarter and fender lips have already been bent to accomodate larger wheel sizes (by the shop that "restored" it before I bought it) and I have plenty of room now between the edge of the tire and the lip opening.  I think I'll be fine with this size.  But again, I'll measure to make sure.  :)

Jeff
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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2008 - 03:06:13 AM »
I agree you are on the right track

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Offline miketyler

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Re: Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2008 - 08:22:40 AM »
yup - on the offset, the manufacturers index on zero offset. That is with inside hub of the wheel dead center. Thus a 9" wide wheel with 4.5BS could be described as as having zero offset. With a baseline established in the center of the "barrel" of the wheel, then you can have "negative" or "postive" offset.  As Goody described then, positive offest moves the hub of the wheel outboard, and negative moves the hub inboard.

Good stuff.  :2thumbs:

 
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Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2008 - 08:48:58 AM »
yup - on the offset, the manufacturers index on zero offset.
 

Is this still true, or are you talking back in the day? Most newer cars that I look at seem to have maximum backspacing, i.e., a pretty flat wheel surface towards the outer rim of the wheel.


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Offline Super Blue 72

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Re: Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2008 - 09:32:52 AM »
Is this still true, or are you talking back in the day? Most newer cars that I look at seem to have maximum backspacing, i.e., a pretty flat wheel surface towards the outer rim of the wheel.

 :iagree:  Very true, I don't know why they do that.  Perhaps it's from a handling point of view in that the track of the car will be wider thus handle better?  I used to think that it was just the FWD cars that had the center of the wheel almost flush with the outer edge of the rim but even the RWD cars/trucks are like that now.  :dunno:
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Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2008 - 09:51:43 AM »
Perhaps it's from a handling point of view in that the track of the car will be wider thus handle better? 

That's what I'm thinking.


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Offline miketyler

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Re: Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2008 - 11:28:17 AM »
is more of design lingo, not so relevent to whatever the common wheel template is today. Probably very few wheels made with zero offset today. Was attempting to help better illustrate the way wheels are measured.
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Offline HP2

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Re: Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2008 - 01:53:46 PM »
Perhaps it's from a handling point of view in that the track of the car will be wider thus handle better? 

Kinda, sorta. What is does is alter an item called scrub radius. The scrub radius is the point where the tire tread centerline intersects with the steering axis inclination line (the imaginary line runs through the ball joints to the ground). Where these two points intersect, or don't, relative to each other can alter the way a vehicle feels to the driver, effort required to enter and maintain a turn, and some self correcting tendancies. It also can impact the cars tendancy to "weight jack" or transfer lateral loads during cornering. Yes, newer cars tend to have zero to positive scrub whereas our older cars have more negative scrub.

Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2008 - 03:22:05 PM »
Question, HP, or even two:

If we custom-designed control arms and tie-rod links to extend farther outboard, could we then, using the existing spindles, brakes, etc., use modern wheels? And how would this likely affect the characteristics you're talking about above.

Not making plans; just curious about the science.


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Offline HP2

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Re: Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2008 - 11:51:10 AM »
The simple answer is yes, if you could extend everything out, you could use massive offset wheels like newer cars.

The reality is it is already in practice, although not as extreme as some late model wheels. With a 15" wheel, about the maximum backspace you can fit on the front is 4.75. If you move up to a 17 or 18 wheel, you can now get 5-5.5 back space because the bigger wheel diameters clear the components that were in the way with a 15" wheel. This puts you in teh same realm of sizing as many late model vehicles.

However, with some careful component selction and a non-factory spec alignment, you can duplicate the late model feel and performance in your older car without all the hassle of relocating suspension points.

The back is a little different because the leafs are in the way. However, you can relocate the leafs inboard and do the same thing there. XV fits 335 tires in their cars when the leaf springs are replaced by the three link suspension, because the interference is gone. There also is the possibility of swapping rear ends to a wider version to achieve the same thing. On an E body, the only rear wider is a C body, but on something like an A body that is very narrow, you could put in a wider rear and use more offset in the wheels instead of narrowing the rear end.

So this is why you can see so many varied combinations of wheels and tires and suspensions that can fit inside the fenders of what appears to be very similar cars. There may be 5 different ways to fit similar sized tires in the wells without any two being exactly alike in execution.

Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: Answer ONE question about backspacing!
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2008 - 12:26:22 PM »
Thanks. One more question:

The back is a little different because the leafs are in the way. However, you can relocate the leafs inboard and do the same thing there.

Won't this negatively affect the roll center for the rear suspension, i.e. make body roll easier?


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