An old 361.....

[Hot_Rodder]

For one of my cars out in the yard with no drivetrain I pose this question to you all because, depending on how I look at, I get different self opions to me about it.... Basicaly an endless racking of my brain about this. But anyway, here's a run down on it, it's a '64 date code block. As far as I know, it's sound. Needs cleaning up, and bored, but again, as far as I know, the block is fine (no cracks, ect). Now, I pulled it out of my third gen Charger and had it somewhat running when I pulled it (extremely bad blow by). The heads the I will reuse are the 516 heads, but I will open up the exhaust side some, and go with a slightly larger valve on the exhaust for better flow. Being a closed chamber head, it should keep compression up a little better than the open style. The bottom end has the factory steel crank (based on the balancer). The intake may not work on this motor (as far as the rpm range of the intake goes)... So that's an issue. The tranny that I pulled with it, may or may not be used with this motor (727 TF). I can get my hands on an A833 from a '68 Coronet that had a 440... This motor has the factory exh man's, but if I do use this motor, than headers will be in store..... Anyway, street car, nothing exotic. What would you do? Also, this motor is just sitting around, and I have an empty engine bay.

[NoMope Greg]

I'm going with "other."  Unless you can find a car that would be worthwhile to have it in as date-correct, a 361 doesn't seem to me to be worth the time and money you're going to have to put into it.  With 383s being so common and far more parts available, if you're going to spend the money to build an engine for it, better to find a good 383, take the steel crank out of the 361 (and whatever other parts are good) and use the 516s to build a good runner.  So rebuilding it and running it is out.

Because a 361 isn't a desirable engine, selling it or rebuilding and selling it are out. Therefore, that leaves junking it or keeping it as a keepsake.  Hate to junk a perfectly good engine and keeping it solely as a keepsake is fine with your high school annual, but a little more difficult with an engine block.  Therefore, I would propose that you find someway to make it a functional or artistic keepsake - something with some aesthetic appeal.  A stand for a coffee table, perhaps, or perhaps something useful in your shop, like mounting it on end with a stool on one end and casters on the other.  OK, so a barstool out of an engine block isn't very functional, but you get the idea.  After all, it's a Mopar engine and it's made to work - so make it work!  Just my 

Good luck, whatever you decide.   

[Chryco Psycho]

punt it
 I would find a 400 block or 1 of the 3 million 383 blocks & do a stroker the cost will be the same or less to build & you will have a far better engine

[Hot_Rodder]

Chrcho I could get the 400 that's down the road (complete motor, though it's been in the weather for god knows how long) for like $100... Has a manual tranny behind it out of a 4wd truck and the axles are there too.... My only concern is since it's been out in the weather for so long, I wonder how rough it may be on the inside. I know it's going to be locked up and all, but since I would reuse the 516 heads, then the heads on that 400 I wouldn't worry with (esp since the valves that are closed, are probably rusted shut.... But the ones that are open, well.... to say the least. The crank, I'd imagine mine is fine, and could reuse it and the rods.... Save some money that way. This wouldn't be a monster build, that's where my other car comes in play.... Just looking to put something together, throw it in this rolling car.... And get it going, and maybe get it out of here.... Don't know for sure yet... Guess maybe I need to check it out. I could pick up his 440 that he rebuilt fo rlike $500, but it's been rebuilt, and if I do get it, then I would have other plans for it so.....

[Chryco Psycho]

440 for $500 is a great deal , I would pull it apart & have it checked out before installing it

[asm74]

I could pick up his 440 that he rebuilt fo rlike $500, but it's been rebuilt, and if I do get it, then I would have other plans for it so.....

It's been rebuilt... and that's a bad thing?  How long ago was it rebuilt?  whatever you'd want to do to that 440 would still probably cost less than getting that 361 done up.

As for what to do with it... I've always wanted to build a back-up power generator from an internal combustion engine, but one that was modified to accept alcohol based fuels...  I think a 361 would fit this purpose nicely (I still plan of getting a slant six and doing this for a roadster).  If you're into semi-scientific experimentation, that engine could be a good platform for tooling around....   

[Hot_Rodder]

The guy who still has the 440 and the 400, can't really tell me a whole lot about them. The 440 he has told me that it's been rebuilt, bottom end to factory spec's (probably been bored .030). The heads (if I remember right are the 452s). The motor came out of a truck, so I don't know what the exact year is.... The cam he said is bigger than factory and for high rpm use because he was going to put it into a 4wd truck with really high gears in it.... Like 4.88 if not higher... The 400 is factory. It's a '77 year block. Other than that... Don't know what to say. As for this 361, as I said, it was running when I pulled it. If I get the 400, and use these 516 heads, then I would obviously be keeping the heads.... The intake, good question, it's for a higher rpm band then what I have in mind, so.... I need to pull that 400 apart and see what it looks like....

[Hot_Rodder]

I thought I had replied to this post already, but either it got changed, or something.... Maybe I'm just imagining things . Anyway, I picked up the 400 motor today, stood it up on end, and a bunch of water came rushing out of it, followed by a lot of oil.... This was through the valve cover, but I've yet to start to take it apart to see what's what on the inside. I was looking at the crank harmonic damper, and it's narrow too like a steel crank, being that it came out of a heavy duty truck with a manual, is it possible that it too has a steel crank? I'm wondering about the heads, they may be 452's.... Time will tell for sure.

[Chryco Psycho]

the first year 400s had steel cranks ,possibly some 4 spds as well , or it may have been built with a 383 steel crank

[Hot_Rodder]

I just got these casting numbers off the driver side of the block, hopefully I read them all correctly....
4006530-400-12
8-19-77

So, the ones who know/have the engine #'s, other than telling me it's a '77 400, can anyone tell me anything else about this. The alternator is still on this motor, so I can't get to the machine pad all that well yet.... Plus I've not yet started taking it apart to see what it's like on the inside....

[Chryco Psycho]

not much to tell , a 77 should not have a steel crank unless it was rebuilt , it is not the more desirable 230 casting

[Hot_Rodder]

I figured it probably wouldn't be all that desirable of a motor, though, the 400 is a little better than the 361 in ways... Atleast with the 400 I can find decent internal parts for, where as the 361, well... It would have to be some custom things done, and that's just too much $$$$ there.... I think, provided there's nothing wrong with the block, it will be fine b/c I'm not talking about really doing the motor up. Heck, a factory stroke crank, factory rods (if they check out), factory heads, and a hydraulic flat tappet cam for it. But it will more than likely have an A833 behind it.... Also, I'm thinking of running the Schumacher conversion package for A body V8 to B/RB kit..... Not really high end, but, this isn't exactly a high end build either, so...... Anyway, there's more, but... I'm just trying to get started on this 400 and see what's what....

[Chryco Psycho]

you will either need to modify the crank for the pilot bushing for the A833 or replace the crank with a 383 steel one if you can , or do a 440 crank & go to 451 CI

[Hot_Rodder]

Chrcho, at this point, until I get the factory coffee cans out of the block, I don't know what I'm gonna do with this block... It's got the 452 heads, but I still want to go with the 516, but open the exhuast side up some, and go to a 1.81 valve. I still don't know for sure if the crank in the 400 is a factory steel crank or not... But so far I've seen nothing that would make it a cast crank, it has the thin harmonic damper, and I don't see any external balance weights either. So far, 4 holes have rust, how bad I don't know yet, 2 have/had water sitting in them.... and the other 2 have/had oil in them..... I started to take the damper off, and found that my socket that fits it, has gone missing... Figures.. . I hope that the crank in this motor is a steel piece, if so then I want have to worry about modifying one for use with a manual tranny... . The machine pad has this stamped into it:
8T400
3  15
L


The casting #'s on the passenger side read: http://www.440source.com/dampers.htm
4006530-400-12

       D     N

                                      Casting clock right here.....


The balancer looks to be roughly 1" thick, but not much more. I know with the 440 cast crank damper it reads something among the lines of use with 440 cast crank only..... I tried to get the clutch assembly off, but things seem to be easier said than done at this point.... . One day....

By the way, providing the block is good, here's what I'm figuring on for a build:
400 block (hopefully no more than .030 over)
516 heads, opened exhaust side with 1.81 valves
Edelbrock TM6 aluminum single plane intake
Demon carb
Factory rods (checked) and install ARP Cap Screws
Forged pistons (flat top)
Timing Gear setup
Electronic ignition
factory steel crank setup for manual tranny
headers
maybe a high volume oil pump, and a 3/8" oil pick up tube
Autolite plugs
8mm Spiral core wires
180* thermostat
high volume waterpump assembly (all aluminum)
Hydraulic Flat Tappet cam

Going in a street car, nice driver, nothing exotic, just fun to drive.... Any comments while I continue with this block? I thought about doing the 451 stroker set up, but I don't have a 440 crank, and was wanting to see how this motor can come out with using the factory low deck block cranks and such.... With the 516 heads, opened exh, should make a pretty good difference.... I don't plan on putting this on the track, so....

The possible valves:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Milodon/697/45266-8/10002/-1/842843%7C10243
-------or-------
http://www.jegs.com/i/Manley/660/11891-1/10002/-1/746722
Which one do you think would be the better one for what I have in mind?

Also, I was just surfacing around the net, and went to 440 Source, went under the damper section, and read this:

Shown above is damper #3614374, used on 400's with external balance cast cranks, which can usually be found in a passenger car and/or automatic trans application (applications with 400 engines and manual transmission applications used forged cranks.) It measures 7 1/4" diameter by about 7/8" wide. Although it is similar to the "six pack" dampers above, the weight on these is much thicker, and more closely resembles the weights on the cast crank 440 models below, even though the ring thickness is similar to an internal balance damper. One easy way to identify these (and not confuse them with six pack models) is the small half circle that is cut into one side of the counterweight. This is visible in the picture above at about the 3 o'clock position. This is the only damper that will have this small cut.

Notice the stuff in the red glow, what you think? Maybe it is a factory steel crank afterall..... Anyway, here's the link if interested: http://www.440source.com/dampers.htm

[Chryco Psycho]

well usually the cast crank engines have E stamped onto the pad & yours doen`t have it so very possibly it is a steel crank especially with the thin damper & a factory clutch on it
 Honestly it will cost you less to do a 451 using 440 source parts than rebuilding you stock parts will cost
 I would pass on the Demon carb , Holley or Proform are far better
 I would use a Melling HP not high volume pump 
 Milodon or Manley both make a decent valve