XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?

Author Topic: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?  (Read 8001 times)

Offline Stacked440

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1026
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2008 - 03:21:50 PM »
Jack the thread I guess :bigsmile:  94 is in the worst shape in Michigan, as far as what I've seen.  Our wonderful governor raised taxes and also cut spending on road repairs...soooo...more money going in, less coming out. :screwy:
-Kyle-
1971 Challenger R/T clone 440/5-spd
1973 Duster - 5.7L Hemi swap project




Offline HP2

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4478
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2008 - 04:02:39 PM »
Hoping to clarify, you cannot make the chassis too rigid. That is like saying you do not need a good concrete foundation for a house. If the uni-body structure is not solid, you turn the entire car into an active part of the suspension. On top of that, you cannot control how active it is in the suspension system and this leads to compromised structural integrity which can lead to buckled panels, popped spot welds and worse. Think of it this way, these car were put together with spot welds. That is like making a pair of pants entirely of buttons and no stitching. Sure they will cover your arse, but stress them and the buttons are coming off. Adding chassis stiffing components is in the same vein as it allows the suspension to more accurately be tuned to the road at hand.

The roughness of ride that some complain of stems primarily from inadaquate shocks, spring rates and suspension travel. However, like everything in life, compromise and moderation is key to building a car that reacts solidly but does not beat you to death if its primary purpose is as a cruiser. If you are building a hard core handling vehicle, then large torsion and sway bar with big leaf springs are the norm. If you have a cruiser, then more moderate torsion bars with  sway bars and a good gas shock will allow the car to have excellent road manners with slightly increased wheel rates and a fairly supple ride.

Don't forget that XV developed its stiffening kit through extensive lab and track testing. Their pieces are the result of a very analytic approach rather than simply putting pieces on the car and hoping they work. Their systems are designed to provide the least amount of compromise between weight, ride comfort, and handling. Go check out the changes here; http://www.xvmotorsports.com/news/news_display1.cfm?id=37. IMO, they are worth it. Your putting 750 pounds worth of engine the nose of that car. I wouldn't worry about the extra 10-12 pounds those braces add.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008 - 07:15:14 AM by HP2 »

Offline ChallengerHK

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 7338
  • I'm working on it - No, really
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2008 - 06:08:02 PM »
I knew HP would correct me  :crazy:


"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

Advice Thread - Taking Pictures Of Cars

Offline thedodgeboys

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 3633
  • ''Normal’s Overrated''
    • THE DODGE BOYS
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2008 - 06:58:53 PM »
For what its worth   :2cents: I would add them if you dont mind the work. :working:
 I think they would help with the hemi's power to keep the car from twisting.  :burnout:
Go Fast & Have Fun...
70 6.1 HEMI 6-speed Drop Top...

Offline Carlwalski

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 20672
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2008 - 08:30:31 AM »
Hoping to clarify, you cannot make the chassis too rigid. That is like saying you do not need a good concrete foundation for a house. If the uni-body structure is not solid, you turn the entire car into an active part of the suspension. On top of that, you cannot control how active it is in the suspension system and this leads to compromised structural integrity which can lead to buckled panels, popped spot welds and worse. Think of it this way, these car were put together with spot welds. That is like making a pair of pants entirely of buttons and no stitching. Sure they will cover your arse, but stress them and the buttons are coming off. Adding chassis stiffing components is in the same vein as it allows the suspension to more accurately be tuned to the road at hand.

The roughness of ride that some complain of stems primarily from inadaquate shocks, spring rates and suspension travel. However, like everything in life, compromise and moderation is key to building a car that reacts solidly but does not beat you to death if its primary purpose is as a cruiser. If you are building a hard core handling vehicle, then large torsion and sway bar with big leaf springs are the norm. If you have a cruiser, then more moderate torsion bars with  sway bars and a good gas shock will allow the car to have excellent road manners with slightly increased wheel rates and a fairly supple ride.

Don't forget that XV developed its stiffening kit through extensive lab and track testing. Their pieces are the result of a very analytic approach rather than simply putting pieces on the car and hoping they work. Their systems are designed to provide the least amount of compromise between weight, ride comfort, and handling. Go check out the changes here; http://www.xvmotorsports.com/news/news_display1.cfm?id=37. IMO, they are worth it. Your putting 750 pounds worth of engine the nose of that car. I wouldn't worry about the extra 10-12 pounds those braces add.


It's a good day in my PC room when you make a post that corresponds with what I have written.
You're the man HP, one of CCCs true technical heroes, suspension being your forte.
I wouldn't leave home without my stiffening kit. Light weight, strength and peace of mind.


:thumbsup:
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60

Offline willhaven

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1285
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2008 - 09:59:17 AM »
I'm pretty sure the red 71 Cuda 340 test mule XV upgraded for their Level I kit had the stiffening kit added before testing.

The Level I kit still uses torsion bars and leaf springs as well. If I recall correctly, they used really stiff torsion bars and actually used lighter leaf springs.

Offline ntstlgl1970

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2204
  • T a c o c a t
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2008 - 02:30:38 PM »
I'm putting them on my car, when they arrived I was surprised at how light they are (shipping weight was ~10 lbs.)
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline Topcat

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 15376
  • Member since 9/16/04
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2008 - 04:26:25 PM »
I would not run those with torsion bars.  Those are better suited for a coil over settup.  Torsion bars are great, these coil over kits move the vehicle center of gravity up and forward (its not much but its going the wrong way) and transmit the twisting of the front suspension to an area that the vehicle was not designed for.  So you have to add bracing.  Torsion bars transmit the twist to the trans frame member.

I'm still not on a final decision on what direction to go yet.
However, I just spoke to John at US Cartool about them. They have free shipping right now up until the Nats. He told me they are really more suited for coil over cars. The torsion bars transmit most of the body stress and flex just as Changin gears posted. He also said because of the torsion bar set up, I probably wouldn't feel any difference in the ride from them. He also said that the upper shock tower shell where it's welded, benefits on rough rides from them. Those areas he said are prone to crack. I had a small crack on one of mine. so I could believe that.

There's a lot of good opinions and thoughts on this from everyone.
It's not about whose right and wrong but what is best suited for what combinations.
Mike, Fremont, CA.


Offline HP2

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4478
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2008 - 11:02:15 PM »
It's a good day in my PC room when you make a post that corresponds with what I have written.
You're the man HP, one of CCCs true technical heroes, suspension being your forte.
I wouldn't leave home without my stiffening kit. Light weight, strength and peace of mind.


:thumbsup:


Thanks Carl. After spending 25 years building and driving circuit cars, you do tend to learn a few things about chassis dynamics.

He told me they are really more suited for coil over cars. The torsion bars transmit most of the body stress and flex just as Changin gears posted. He also said because of the torsion bar set up, I probably wouldn't feel any difference in the ride from them. He also said that the upper shock tower shell where it's welded, benefits on rough rides from them. Those areas he said are prone to crack. I had a small crack on one of mine. so I could believe that.


Yes, the torsion bar stresses are fed through the body somewhat differently than they would be with a coil over. Despite this, the engine bay is still the most unsupported part of a mopar's uni-body construction, regardless of the front suspension used. The addition of the core support yoke and inner fender braces reduce flex to a point that to get more flex reduction would require caging the car. That is a huge gain for a low price in weight and labor. He is correct in that you may not notice any change in the ride, but this is dependant upon your driving experience and familiarity with this particular car. Some people I know are so in tune with their car that they can tell when tire is underinflated within a couple of pounds. Some don't even know when it is time to replace brake pads. How much difference you can feel is up to you and the combo of parts you install.

Offline Carlwalski

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 20672
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2008 - 12:22:35 AM »



HP, no worries. :cheers: I always take in your advice, some good stuff my-man. On the note of not being able to feel it within the car, this is one thing but it's still doing it's job of holding the front end tight, together and keeping the stress points stress free, more so than factory anyhow, a lot more. Something you may not notice, but it IS doing it, this is correct is it not? Like a lot of things in cars, you may not feel or notice them doing their jobs but they are doing what they were designed for, feeling it or not. :)
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60

Offline HP2

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4478
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2008 - 07:04:56 AM »
Very true. They are supporting the front structure even if you don't notice them doing so.

For the more show than go and cruising only crowd, these types of uni-body supports also help keep panel alignment spot on so they don't move as a result of body flex.

Offline boydsdodge

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 582
  • Top end's unlimited....Aaaauuuuugghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!
    • Boydsdodge
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2009 - 09:13:39 PM »
Can they be installed with out burning the engine side of the inner fender paint?
I was also thinking that I could just box the existing rebar that Chrysler installed, that should ad some strength.
What do you think?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009 - 09:15:50 PM by boydsdodge »
Jackson from Toronto.

Offline brads70

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 18747
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2009 - 10:00:02 PM »
 :popcorn:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline ntstlgl1970

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2204
  • T a c o c a t
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2009 - 10:27:18 PM »
I don't think you would be able to weld it without burning the paint. You might be able to minimize the paint damage if you were to TIG weld it, but the fit up needs to be really good. My car was easily 1/2" different between the left and right side. It would have taken a long long time to make the parts fit well enough for TIG. The stock brace is thin enough that you can cut them with tin snips. Even if you were to box them in, I don't think that you would gain much.
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline Travis72

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 894
Re: XV motorsports inner frame fender bracing...overkill?
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2009 - 11:31:23 PM »
No you can't.  My engine bay was just in epoxy primer and it burns through that pretty good see picture.  I also more completely welded up the inner fender to a-arm housing so that's part of the burn marks you see.

Travis
72 Cuda