Block Strengthening...

[ViperMan]

I thought of a lot of cute titles for this thread...  Ones like "Even my mom doesn't have one of these" or "I thought these were just for fat people..."  I decided to wait and be crass in the THREAD instead of the title. 

Anyways, I was browsing through the Mancini website a while back and saw these block girdles...

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/400440blgi.html

I was wondering if, because of building a stroker and a high-power one at that, this might help, especially if/when nitrous comes into the equation.

What are you guys's opinions on them?  My main concern (besides cost - they're kinda pricey for basically a chunk of metal) is extra height added below the motor and having oil pan clearance issues.

Thoughts?

Jeff

[nivvy]

So far to the best of my knowledge there has been factory blocks holding 1000 HP with no cap walk issues...... its worth the 450 for one all day long...... stock blocks are good to about 600HP or high rpm shifting and such 

I have one..... allows for more oil also........ no clearance issues for me

Buy one with the solid roller cam and dont look back       

[ViperMan]

Man you are just hell bent on me using solid lifters, aren't you.    Why don't YOU buy me a solid roller cam and then I'll think about it. 

Jeff

[Chryco Psycho]

marginal , they are worthwhile do add stength but the cost is not cheap , , still cheaper then a new block
with NOS I would use it without 50/50

[rallyechall]

Hughes has them less expensive for big and small block.

http://www.hughesengines.com/partDetail.asp?partID=12326&eTypeID=14

http://www.hughesengines.com/partDetail.asp?partID=12313&eTypeID=1

[nivvy]

Man you are just hell bent on me using solid lifters, aren't you.    Why don't YOU buy me a solid roller cam and then I'll think about it. 

Jeff

good luck on whatever you do....... sorry I offended you and ill stay out of your posts...... 

[Changin Gears]

I've never really understood how these add much strength.  Main studs have a preload of about 17,000 lbs.  I'm pretty sure if you put even a couple thousand pounds force in a down direction on this girdle and it will flex.  Any flex at all will not keep the caps from walking.  They are designed the wrong way, they are strongest keeping the top of the caps from going side to side and front to back.  The clamping force of the bolts would have trouble holding this shear load.

[nivvy]

I like em.... it ties the block together... on the mega block down at the shop it was making 850HP wit 2 bolt studded mains and it had cap walk issues... 

[Moparal]

Jeff, Aren't you just building like a 500 hp engine or so?    And you want it to be a bb stroker or something?  If so, then at the rear, it is only going to be around 425 hp. 500 hp engines are a dime a dozen now adays. Everybody has to have one.  Unless you are going for the wow factor,a 446 or 452 ( basic 440 rebuild) with a good set of head work and a solid cam can be achieved really easy.  Any body that is addicted to speed will tell you your wallet will not keep up with your urge.  Unless your just wanting to show off parts to set and talk with the locals, I think you should just see how little it takes to have a big block like back in the day that will give you all the power and dependability you are looking for.

I have been reading your posts and feel you may really just benefit off a good ole fashion steel head engine with 500 hp , that is cost efficient, dependable, low maint and fun. You can stroke anything, beeting a 500 hp stroker engine with just a 440 is a statememnt that says....I can go faster or as fast with less. You will only be as fast as your wallet, and be able to cruise less of a distance.distances.  Just food for thought.   And out of 35 yrs of building hot rods, I havent had to actually use a girdle. I have used cross bolted blocks. I had a little cap walk on my 499 when it went over 800 hp, but didnt self destruct.   Just food for thought. And Like StroKer pointed out...Theres nothing like a roller for top performance and dependability, if you want to build some big power and have it last a while. But nothing is grenade proof

[moper]

On a B wedge, they are great. On an RB, they are good. They only disperse the forces over the whole skirt. The problem is not the fastener strength. It's the webbing above the mains. Studs will stop most cap walk issues, providing the enigne does not detonate. Detonation can occur without it ever beign heard. And that is what kills 75% of the stuff I've taken apart. But, I routinely run up to 650hp with no girdle, factory caps, and ARP studs. Every block gets completely properly machined. So there are no consessions to integrity. A 500 hp RB taht detonates and never revs over 5800 will blow itself up over time. I know of a few 700hp race engines with stock caps and studs that have no issues beign flogged in brackets. There is no "perfect setup" for every situation. But from what you describe you are building, I don't feel you need it.

[ViperMan]

Stroker you're welcomed in my posts anyday - I'm just messin' around with ya.  I'm sorry I haven't called yet - my weekends home always get busy.  I'll buzz ya this weekend.

Al, I hear what you're saying, and for the most part I do agree with you.  I wasn't really thinking I needed one of these.  I'll admit I'm not familiar with a cross-bolt engine, or even exactly with what "cap walk" means, but I'll let my machinist help me out with that stuff in the near future.

I'm not looking to be a "parts display," though I do intend on driving it around a decent bit.  I want to be in the middle - I don't want the cheapest engine build-up, but I certainly don't want the most expensive.  I also don't want to just hand the block and a bunch of money to someone and say "Build me an engine."  I want the experience of doing it myself.  I didn't even bother checking my tickets for the 505 raffle at Carlisle - I didn't want it.  The real reason I'm asking ALL these questions is to establish where the middle IS, and also to determine exactly what I'm looking for.

My only argument on the hydraulic rocker lifters is that - if a company like Comp Cams advertises the cam and lifters as a "high performance street" at such-and-such a lift, duration, etc, then they've got to have produced the parts to perform as indicated.  If I buy the set up and it breaks/doesn't hold up/underperforms, I'm going to have a serious chat with the folks at Comp Cams!  It's like watching TV commercials of sports cars on twisty roads and at the bottom it say "Do not attempt..."  Why not?!  If the car ain't supposed to do it, don't be showin' it to me!

Stroker, and you, and Neil, all have years of experience building engines.  But I also know that some people feel strongly one way or another on certain topics, and that's what they're going to believe.  I'm willing to take faith in what a manufacturer states their product is capable of doing, and go with it.  If I'm wrong, then THEY'RE wrong, and I'll deal with them in my own manner.  If a hydraulic lifter isn't supposed to exceed .5 inches of lift, then I don't think Comp Cams would SELL hydraulic cams with .57 inches of lift.

I don't WANT 800 horsepower.  I'd wreck my car.  Plus I don't want to endure the costs of building a car that can HANDLE 800 horsepower - heavier duty trans, SERIOUS body bracing and strengthening, custom axles and rear suspension and HUGE tires with wheel tubs etc etc etc etc....  I think at the 550 to 600 hp range I'm looking to build, I can make some body/frame strength upgrades, put in a Keisler tranny, a nice solid rear end and a fancy driveshaft (I just want a fancy driveshaft, that's all!) with some big but modest tires/wheels and take 'er down the highway/track/fairgrounds.

So I understand your comments and yes, I'm asking questions about products/parts/designs that our OUTSIDE of my build range, but only because I'm trying to make sure I've ESTABLISHED my build range, and also simply because I want to hear what other people have to offer about things I know nothing about!

I appreciate your input, and Strokers, Neils, MEK's - all of you guys.  This club alone is helping my own dreams come true, and I can't thank any of you enough.

Jeff

[nivvy]

I have alot to learn compared to chyrco / moper / moparal and guys like that....... they explain things much better than me. sorry im just legally bi-polar is all ...     moparal is getting me a custom dana 60 done cause im gonna throw the N2O at it...... like a 300 shot eventually.... I need something to take down the beast 

Its just one of those things. not everyone wants to build a $15,000 motor or more ........... or can afford it or just dont want that much......

However. I would seriously put it all down on paper and go over it again and again..... some things you just dont want to skimp on..... and some things are better fo the long haul... The power gets addicting quik !!!!!!!!

Here is a list of what you need... start with one part at a time and research it.... overall value and longevity... I think you might be suprised as where to spend money in better places.... 

You can cut out ALOT of costs down below what I have listed.... I have $1500 just into my roller setup cam to rockers....

More parts than you thought huh....... 

Edelbrock RPM heads 84CC    $3,000.00
Full Stage 3 race port by Hensley Performance 325cfm @ .600   
Milodon Race Valves   
11/32 race valves, 2.14/1.81.   
Titanium retainers and 10 degree valve locks.   
Push rod holes enlarged.   
Race 5 angle valve job.   
Kmotion K1000 springs 1.625 Diameter   
Spring Height 1.970, coil bind 1.090. Seat pressure 200 lbs,713lbs/in spring rate/ max lift @.820   
Seat Pressure 200 lbs / Open Pressure 658 lbs   
Ray Barton Mopar Performance Stroker Kit 4.150 (4340)    $1,325.00
JE Pistons (Flat top) 6.76 rod / .990 pin / 1.865 comp. Hght.    $479.60
Manley rods (RBRE) 4340 H Beam 6.76 / .990 pin    $686.00
Clevite Bearings    $92.00
Federal Mogul Main Bearings    $70.10
Akerly & Childs file fit moly rings    $118.90
Mopar engine kit    $33.07
Ati Super Damp w / steel hub    $391.95
Balancing / pin fit / rods    $285.00
Chenowith Racing Main Stud Girdle Kit    $460.00
Edelbrock TM7 / Ported/Polished    $260.00
Holley 1050 Dominator "BIGS" Stage 5    $1,100.00
Moroso Electric Waterpump    $85.00 (goin bye bye) for test purposes only..
Aeromotive Fuel Pressure Regulator    $82.00
K&N Dominator 16" Air Cleaner    $103.00
Edelbrock 4150-4500 2" Adapter    $60.00
Harland Sharp 1.7 Full Neddle Bearing Roller Rockers / Holddowns shims etc..    $800.00
440 Source Fabricated Aluminum Valve Covers    $150.00
Bronze shank for roller cam/distributor    $69.95
MSD Pro Billet Distributor    $295.10
MSD 6 AL    $240.00
MSD 2 Step               $85
Pro Form High Torque/Light Starter    $114.95
Comp Cams Solid Roller    $684.41
SECRET
TTI 2" Polished Ceramic Coated Headers w/ gaskets    $900.00
Custom Mancini Racing Chromoly Pushrods    $170.00
Cam Bearings (Federal Mogul)    $23.39
Pete Jackson Gear Drive (noisy)    $223.88
March Serpentine Pulley set w/ power steering pulley     $295.00
Miloden Oil System    $339.95
Felpro Headgaskets (1009)    $75.00
Stroker Tray Mopar Perf. 4.150    $36.95
High Volume Oil Pump    $49.95
Powermaster Chrome Alternator    $129.95
Chrome Bolt Package    $59.95
Mopar Performance Chrome timing cover    $32.95
Weld Tech Custom Stainless Engine Kit    $200.00
( Valley Pan / Distributor Hold Down / Power Steering / Alternator / Water Neck)   
ARP Head Bolts    $65.00
Water Pump / Timing Cover Bolt Kit    $29.95
Main cap Stud kit (ARP)    $45.95
Carburetor Gaskets    $10.00
Fuel Block off plate    $14.99
Mopar Voltage Regulator    $45.00
Valve Cover Gaskets    $15.00
Mopar Performance Engine Gasket Set    $49.95
Jegs Spring Return Kit    $85.00
K&N Valve Cover Breather    $25.00
K&N Oil Filter    $10.00
Earls Breather/PCV    $35.00
Summit Fuel Filters    $50.00
Edelbrock Intake Bolt Kit    $18.69
Aeroquip Stainless Steel Hose (-6 20Foot)    $80.00
Various Aluminum Fittings     $500.00
Mopar Performance Street hemi Orange paint    $8.50

 $14,566.03 for a tire melting king    PRICELESS

 And I have made some upgrades since then..... and will make more...

you and cudaguy are building 500 inchers... I sense a match brewing there........ 

[ViperMan]

Cuda Guy has access to guns - the match will only go so far. 

Lol - I'll write a better post when I finish reading the rest of yours!!   

Jeff

[NoMope Greg]

StRoKer - thanks!  I was going to sit down and do this tonight - you just saved me a bunch of time.   

[nivvy]

StRoKer - thanks!  I was going to sit down and do this tonight - you just saved me a bunch of time.