Most correctly restored Challenger ever?

Author Topic: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?  (Read 39524 times)

Offline hemiken

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8785
  • Hemi-fied Mopar in Australia
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #105 on: August 23, 2008 - 06:35:58 PM »
Hi Dave,

Can you tell me how to extract and duplicate the marking on my radiator support and have you seen this done before please.   It has the T6 color of the car written in plain view, when you notice it.
1970 Barracuda   (O^--^===|===^--^O)
1971 Barracuda   (O O {]{]{]|[}[}[} O O)
1970 Challenger  (O O [======R/T=] O O)
1971 Challenger  (O O ===== ===== O O)
I pay homage to the best Mopars ever built.




Offline js27

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1380
  • MOPAR OR NO CAR
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #106 on: August 23, 2008 - 07:34:07 PM »
Hemiken,
I was looking at the photo's of the T6 and they look kind of strange. It doesn't look like they were marked with a paint because they looked like they rusted in the shape of the letter when there is very little rust on the surrounding metal. It almost look's like there was no paint there.  :clueless:
Just curious.
JS27
1967 GTX
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T Conv.

Offline hemiken

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8785
  • Hemi-fied Mopar in Australia
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #107 on: August 23, 2008 - 07:37:32 PM »
I know, i found this strange aswell..... And it is deffenitly rusty T6.  Do not know what they could have used to make it rust, i was wondering if maybe they used a wax crayon and wrote on the support as paint would not penatrate the waxed area and it would flake off over time. :dunno: mystery :clueless:
1970 Barracuda   (O^--^===|===^--^O)
1971 Barracuda   (O O {]{]{]|[}[}[} O O)
1970 Challenger  (O O [======R/T=] O O)
1971 Challenger  (O O ===== ===== O O)
I pay homage to the best Mopars ever built.

Offline hemiken

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8785
  • Hemi-fied Mopar in Australia
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #108 on: August 23, 2008 - 08:16:05 PM »
Thanks Dave,  I will try your methodolgy and see what the results bring up. :2thumbs:  The car is a factory T6 Tan Metallic M46 Barracuda.
1970 Barracuda   (O^--^===|===^--^O)
1971 Barracuda   (O O {]{]{]|[}[}[} O O)
1970 Challenger  (O O [======R/T=] O O)
1971 Challenger  (O O ===== ===== O O)
I pay homage to the best Mopars ever built.

Offline hemiken

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8785
  • Hemi-fied Mopar in Australia
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #109 on: August 23, 2008 - 08:28:26 PM »
Hey Dave,

In regards to an earlier question.  We would be interested in anything you can findout about the M46 Barracudas buddy. :2thumbs:
1970 Barracuda   (O^--^===|===^--^O)
1971 Barracuda   (O O {]{]{]|[}[}[} O O)
1970 Challenger  (O O [======R/T=] O O)
1971 Challenger  (O O ===== ===== O O)
I pay homage to the best Mopars ever built.

Offline ozrt4406

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 567
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #110 on: August 24, 2008 - 12:07:54 AM »
YOU DONT WANT THAT DIRTY OL RUSTY BARRACUDA KENNY IT NEEDS A NICE HOME DOWN SOUTH................OH I KNOW ............................. :stirpot: :stirpot:IT CAN LIVE AT MY PLACE  ....IT WONT GET LONELY AND IT WILL HAVE A NICE SHED TO LIVE IN..................I CANT BE MORE FAIR THAT THAT CAN I?
T/A AND R/T............... IM GREEDY.

Offline hemiken

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8785
  • Hemi-fied Mopar in Australia
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #111 on: August 24, 2008 - 12:09:21 AM »
Your generousity is overwhelming old mate............ :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:
1970 Barracuda   (O^--^===|===^--^O)
1971 Barracuda   (O O {]{]{]|[}[}[} O O)
1970 Challenger  (O O [======R/T=] O O)
1971 Challenger  (O O ===== ===== O O)
I pay homage to the best Mopars ever built.

Offline kissalien

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #112 on: August 25, 2008 - 11:33:35 AM »
What criteria or benchmark was used when line supervisors directed or trained their workers?  Did Chrysler Corporate employ teams of design engineers to waste the Corporation's time and money?  Please enlighten everyone following here exactly what the purpose of those drawings were for if they were not factored into the designing of Chrysler vehicles.  The main director/VP for Chrysler (who is in charge of the entire paint operations across the country) lives across the street from me.  I have had numerous conversations with him about this very subject and he said that if protocol is ignored on a continuous basis, (by workers) they are terminated.  This "whatever" mentality that you are attempting to promote regarding assembly procedures represented a very very  SMALL percentage of "reality" in the realm of things.  Come tour the manufacturing facilities with me or visit Detroit, MI. Chrysler (every six months) and see if your observations ring true.   It would have been absolute mayhem if line workers were allowed to do anything they felt compelled to do while performing their responsibilities.  Individual deviations in spray patterns, etc…absolutely.  A freelance mentality with regard to design assembly procedures (and even safety)…NO WAY!  Bill Embree, a life time retiree of Chrysler also conveyed these same sentiments.  He worked his way up the ranks from an 18 year old employee to a retired supervisor.  But really now....what would these guys know about Chrysler protocol and procedures! :lol:

Don't know where you came up with this mayhem thing? Just trying to explain why some cars are "mistakes" as most people call them. Apparently my explanation isn't good enough, so let's hear your explanation. Why did my FM3/V6M car never have cowl blackout if someone was sitting there looking at a drawing. Maybe they were looking at the drawing and decided they just didn't feel like doing that today?

I never said the drawings don't exist. I told you I have them. I never said they weren't used as a basis to build the cars. I know they were used to get the cars built. And if you look at them you will see changes made because in application the design didn't work when it came to building the cars, so changes were made in the procedures. I even said they were used for training. I just stated that not everyone received the same training, especially the guys who filled in at different areas.

Then when someone who worked in a plant told you his experience you laugh it off as wrong because you have engineering drawings and they exist. They way I interpret it ... he never said they didn't exist, just that he didn't have them when some guy told him to fill in and "do it this way". But yet you take the word of a supervisor as gospel and dismiss this guy as being wrong.

Several line workers were interviewed by a friend of mine when we were researching the Trans Am cars as we were trying to figure out a rhyme or reason as to why what was called for in the specs wasn't what we were seeing. For example why do some Trans Am cars come with polished trim rings and others chrome when the specs called for chrome? Because the guys on the line used whatever ones were closest. That's what they said. They didn't care what was correct. They just had to get the cars down the line as they were under pressure to get the cars built. In fact they even said as long as they got 4 of the same kind they were good with it. Do you believe them, or were they just making all this up?

Something as minor as trim rings wasn't even usually considered when final inspections were done. Does the car have the right color, interior, engine, tranny and believe it or not radio (as they were expensive) were the major things that were looked for. Often it fell on the dealers to fix the other "minor" things.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008 - 11:55:29 AM by kissalien »

Offline kissalien

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #113 on: August 25, 2008 - 11:43:10 AM »
For you guys looking for information on the M46 cars what is it you need/want to know. If you have not talked to Dwight Rindt then you need too. I don't think anyone knows more about these cars than Dwight. He has several of them.

He is on Moparts as M46rat. I know some people on here don't like Moparts but there is no larger body of Mopar knowledge anywhere than on there. But I can ask Dwight for you if you have specific questions.

Offline 73Chally

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2381
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #114 on: August 25, 2008 - 12:05:41 PM »
I have never expressed that  mistakes were not a reality in the construction of these vehicles.  That is precisely the reason that robotics have taken over assembly duties in modern times.   (To increase efficiency and eliminate the possibility of errors.)  The only point I was offering here is that there were/are factory procedures written by the design engineers that referenced EVERY step for the assembly of a vehicle!  I simply will not offer an (improvable) opinion on why or how the mistakes resulted.  Since an “edge” is starting to surface concerning this topic (this is where I take a deep breath GHOST) let me take a moment to set things straight.  Before being labeled as “a know it all”, I want to say that I have researched these topics to the “nth” degree because I DON’T or DIDN'T know anything!  It is those who offer nothing but their unsubstantiated opinions about a subject who should be labeled as the “know it alls”.  I found it necessary to reference Corporate data BECAUSE of my lack of knowledge in certain areas.  I find it funny that many involved here are expected to provide air tight proof regarding their posts, while those that demand such documentation never offer anything other than their typed opinions.   I can assure all the enthusiast on this forum that I will NEVER promote an idea about any topic unless I have factual documentation to support it.  This should not be about trying to push agendas or dismissing the expressions of others.  Hopefully at the end of the day we can walk away from these discussions with a little more knowledge than where we started.
 
DW
KA - Did you not see this post?  Looks like he explained himself pretty well.  It's time to stop the bickering and move on.

Offline kissalien

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #115 on: August 25, 2008 - 01:18:02 PM »
1) I saw it.
2) I don't think anyone is bickering.
3) I do have a big issue with the way Dave claims that the guy who posted his experience is wrong because he has done research on it. I think he treated the poster very unfairly, basically belittling him. IMO.

PS> I don't think I have ever met Dave but I'm glad for what he has done for the hobby. I cedrtainly don't have any agenda against him or anything. I have spent years researching these cars too, but for different reasons. People who know me, know that. I certainly don't know it all. Ask Barry about that! But I also don't go throwing around "facts" based on hearsay unless I note that in my posts. But it seems that Dave thinks that I do based on what I have read here. If I have misinterpreted his meaning then I'm sorry and apologize, but if not, then he is mistaken.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008 - 01:45:34 PM by kissalien »

Offline 70challrtse

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 728
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #116 on: August 25, 2008 - 03:23:52 PM »
KA - Did you not see this post?  Looks like he explained himself pretty well.  It's time to stop the bickering and move on.
:iagree: The issue has been more than adequately vetted, and I, for one, am going with the documentary evidence.

Offline kissalien

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #117 on: August 25, 2008 - 04:20:30 PM »

You are obviously another individual who cannot stick with the facts due to your bias agenda.

You couldn't be more wrong on that point. Ask around if you doubt it.



Where did I laugh at anyone?  Did you hear that through your key board?

In your post where you said, now what would Bill Embree know about procedures or some such thing. I took that to mean my sources are right and this guy is wrong. (Followed by blue laughing emoticon.) If you meant something different by that then I apologize for the mistake.


Quote
Look at YOUR posted quote from this gentleman.  He BLATANTLY states that “There was no engineering spec, just some guy painting the body took a smoke break and said "kid do it like this".  That is an incorrect statement being that  I posted the “engineered specs” showing THAT particular paint pattern that was specified in the engineered drawings.

I just interpret it differently than you. I take it to mean that from his experience he did not have engineering drawing available to him to do his job, not that they never existed. I've never seen the business plan for the company that I work for, but it exists. I just don't need to see it to do my job.



 Sorry if the truth/facts stepped on some toes.  With your rationale I would imagine that some AAR Cudas ended up with 383 engines because the line workers were able to do whatever they wanted if their task became to “difficult” to accomplish. 

Overexaggeration as a way to discredit?  There's a big difference between an engine and a set of trim rings.



 If a part wasn’t “convenient” for them they could do whatever they felt necessary in order to complete the task at hand.  Grab whatever and install whatever!

According to guys who worked on the line that is exactly what happened in some instances. It was more important to get the car through than to delay it trying to find the right screws or whatever. Have you ever talked to any of these guys?



 Who cares what the customer ordered!  No wonder Chrysler almost went out of business in the early 70's!  They had no quality control whatsoever and the employees were allowed to practice mutiny on the assembly line!  Brilliant OPINION!!! 

First, most cars weren't ordered but I doubt that that mattered much. Second extremely poor quality was the major reason that Chrysler almost went out of business. There were other reasons, and some of those were prevalent in the industry. Things like offering a gazillion ways to build a vehicle. Unfortunately it's why cars today are so generic.
 



Do what you want and think whatever you want.  I really don’t care.  The Mopar hobby continues in this “never progressing” mode because people like you take the most extreme NEGATIVE scenarios and try make those EXCEPTIONS protocol throughout the industry.  The exception becomes the rule!

Actually I fight against that all the time. I always say that unless you can prove that your car was done differently, then you should restore it to the engineering drawing or whatever other specs exist. Like your car. You have before pics clearly showing how things were done. The actual quote I usually use is it doesn't matter how a car was done, it matters how the cars were done.



  Ford and GM continue to produce nicely restored vehicles while a select “few” in the Mopar world do their best to tell the restoration world that Chryslers were pieces of junk that had no quality control during their assembly.  If that is not the case maybe your “inferior” quality control attitude is just an excuse for not being able to perform the type of work that will keep pace with the “Jones”. 

I'm confident enough in myself that I have never worried about what the "Joneses" have, or what they think.



Either way, I am sure your opinions are exactly what you need in order to feel better about whatever agenda you are trying to promote.  Take care and enjoy your week. 

I don't have agendas. I only search for knowledge. It's my passion. (Note that knowledge and facts are not the same thing.)

I hope you have a good week too. I don't take any of this personally. I hope you don't either.

Offline kissalien

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #118 on: August 25, 2008 - 04:25:55 PM »
:iagree: The issue has been more than adequately vetted, and I, for one, am going with the documentary evidence.

As would I. But it's always a personal decision. How do you want to do it. Where it becomes the issue is when your car is different than what the specs say. Dave had to address this issue when he restored his car. He chose to do it with how the car was made, not what the drawing said. When I redo my pink car I think that I will opt to go the other way and add the cowl blackout (as per the drawings), even though it did not get built that way.

Offline hemiken

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8785
  • Hemi-fied Mopar in Australia
Re: Most correctly restored Challenger ever?
« Reply #119 on: August 25, 2008 - 04:34:32 PM »
Again, it comes down to personal preferences...................

Either way can be classed as correct and i would execute a build on a car in either fashion myself.

The good part about finding an unmolested car is to be able to copy what was original to that car by documenting when you are dismanteling it.

If you pick up something that someone else has tampered with then you are stuck doing the restoration to the engineering drawings.

Again, personal preference will decide what someone wants to restore and to what extent they will restore too :2thumbs:

Just my  :2cents: and i appreciate every way they are built stock to highly modified and everything in between. :jumping:
1970 Barracuda   (O^--^===|===^--^O)
1971 Barracuda   (O O {]{]{]|[}[}[} O O)
1970 Challenger  (O O [======R/T=] O O)
1971 Challenger  (O O ===== ===== O O)
I pay homage to the best Mopars ever built.