in the process of removing camshaft need help

[73 challenger 440]

ok that was fast, I just checked it 3 times. as the engine rotates I fell it suck my finger tight engainst the hole, the only time it pushes my finger away from the hole is how it's shown in the pic.. so could the car acually run this way?? here's a pic of my distributer, you can see a black marker line I put on the base of the distributer, thats were the rotor is pointing, but my number one plug is on the next connector to the left of that scribe.. when I tried adjsusting my timing either way it had a lot of effect on how the car ran.. it would want to stall either way, and was harder to start....

[71chally416]

The location of the distributor has absoultely NOTHING to do with compression or Intake. It does nothing unless the key is on and it's sparking the plugs. The idea is to have the rotor pointing at #1 cylinder with the #1 piston at TDC on the compression stroke with the timing chain on correctly.

Some of the Cloyes chain sets have multiple marks on the gear. It should have came with instructions how to install it straight up (no advance or retard) if that's the case. When all else fails, follow the directions that came in or on the box. 

Failing multiple timing marks I've never seen a mopar timing set that installed anyway but to line the marks up in their closest proximity, which is 6-o-clock on the top and 12-o-clock on the bottom. Your dad is right.....

[71chally416]

As far as the position of the distributor, you have to have the oil pump drive indexed right to get it in the correct position. It can go in as many different ways as there are teeth on the gear. The distributor itself can only go in two ways because it fits into the slot in the gear.  If it's not where it was before just remove the distributor and re-index the oil drive gear to where you want it.

[73 challenger 440]

The location of the distributor has absoultely NOTHING to do with compression or Intake. It does nothing unless the key is on and it's sparking the plugs. The idea is to have the rotor pointing at #1 cylinder with the #1 piston at TDC on the compression stroke with the timing chain on correctly.

Some of the Cloyes chain sets have multiple marks on the gear. It should have came with instructions how to install it straight up (no advance or retard) if that's the case. When all else fails, follow the directions that came in or on the box. 

Failing multiple timing marks I've never seen a mopar timing set that installed anyway but to line the marks up in their closest proximity, which is 6-o-clock on the top and 12-o-clock on the bottom. Your dad is right.....

THIS is not a cloyes roller chain... this is an untouched chain you are looking at, I need to install a  new camshaft before the new timing chain... what I was saying is that it's kinda strange to have the rotor in the #1 position seeing that the top original sprocket is 180 degrees off.....  unless the firing order is off 180 degrees to compensate for it.. I dont know, I am sure it wil be more evident when installing new parts... even as the sprocket turn the never line up 12:00 and 6:00 they are off but a few teeth.. this appears to be a timig gear that does not have off sets for advancing the cam timing.. so off I go to remove more parts. I want to get this cam out tonight. I'll post pics

[71chally416]

Who says the #1 cylinder is supposed to be at TDC compression stroke when the marks are aligned??  The dots should align at their closest point to each other on the gears. THEN you rotate the motor to TDC on the compression stroke to index the distributor and get it pointing at the #1 cap tower. And get the timing chain installed BEFORE you install the valve gear. It's much easier to turn the cam alone than everything together after the rockers are bolted down.

[73 challenger 440]

I am past he distributer issue... I dont understand why you wouldn't align the mark dead on with a centerline as described in Big-Block mopar engines book. and in Big Block mopar peformance book it states to bring the #1 cylinder to TDC ofcouse they are referring   to gear drives, that may not have marks on them, but either way the marks should be dead on.. thats why they say use a centerline.. .. but thats all now in the past.. I hope.. here's the camshaft, the lobes dont look as bad as thought to be.. the part numbers off the cam are 950634  and SGH 59... any clue as to what size this is??? not knowing any of the previous work it's diffiuclt to determine the correct cam for my car.. If I can get the lift duration and centerline numbers I can use that as an estimation on my next choice... so far I am leaning towards comp extreme cams 274H thinking that wouldn't be to radical of a cam.. I have a 2500 stall converter and 355 gears

[heminut]

NO!!  The cam dot has to be at 6:00 and the crank at 12:00!!
 

My son and I had this same discussion a couple of years ago over the phone when he was assembling his engine. The crank turns two times for every one revolution of the cam. Turn the crank one more revolution and the marks will line up. It doesn't make any difference if the #1 piston is on compression stroke or exhaust stroke when you line up the timing gears, just as long as #1 is at top dead center. The only time you need to worry about whether you're on compression or exhaust stroke is when you set the distributor in.

[73 challenger 440]

My son and I had this same discussion a couple of years ago over the phone when he was assembling his engine. The crank turns two times for every one revolution of the cam. Turn the crank one more revolution and the marks will line up. It doesn't make any difference if the #1 piston is on compression stroke or exhaust stroke when you line up the timing gears, just as long as #1 is at top dead center. The only time you need to worry about whether you're on compression or exhaust stroke is when you set the distributor in.

yea. I know they are suppose to line up on the second revolution, but they dont... on the second revolution it is 3 teeth off... I asked my dad this. his ony suggestion is maybe it's a sprocket thats advancing the cam timing, but never seen one without the offests..  we are going to look at the rockers tomorrow and if there looks like significant wear. I might just replace them as well.... but yea, I understood that the smaller gear with take less revolutions than a larger one..

[71chally416]

Maybe you should degree the cam in the right way. You might have a gear(S) with the mark(s) in the wrong place.

No idea what that cam is. Looks like a chrysler stick with the purple paint, but they list cam part#'s by the kit, not the cam part#. Think I'd go with either a Voodoo or Engle cam like Chryco recommends. I'm not in the loop with these modern hydraulics like he is. I have a Crane roller and a MP solid in my cars.

[73 challenger 440]

I like to order all the parts at once..  I know cam selection can be very crucial.. and I dont want to make a mistake on getting something to big.. as far as I know it's a 78 440 with the stock heads. CHANCES are they probaly weren't worked on other than a valve job..  so whats would be a good choice.. as far as duration and lift, with out having the risk of being to big.. I perfer bottem end to mid power.. I wish the owner new more about the engine..  he just sent it in to be built.. I didn't even ask him why or who suggested a 2500 rpm stall.. he did say he had a 3500 rpm stall and the car was terrible.. I wished I asked more questions..  I'ts boring when your not working on the car, but anxiety sets in when you are..

[71chally416]

"Too big" is really a relative thing according to the size of your motor and your compression ratio. A radical cam in a small motor will be a mild cam in a big motor. A 440 is a BIG motor.

The trick with a street car with mostly stock suspension and street tires is to intentionally kill just enough of the low end to hook the car up good with your cam selection, and then make it up in high gear (IMO)  If the cam is too "small" you end up with a tire burner that lacks high gear punch. You beat everyone for two gears and then they walk by you in high gear. If that's what you want, cool, but if you want to go as fast and quick as possible I would go for something around .500" lift, like the factory #4120237 or the equivalent Voodoo or Engle grind. In a big 440 it will not be "too big". The smaller cams will give you too much low end (IMO) Just make sure you have adequate valve to piston clearance and the right valve springs. 

[Chryco Psycho]

it is amazing the engine even ran & didn`t bend valves if the dots were 3 teeth off , they couldn`t even be bothered to get a good double roller chain to install with the cam , the cam you have may be fine installed correctly
 I will not use Comp cams in Mopars , they are all based off small block Chev grinds , if you want a cam that make s power in a Mopar Use an Engle or Lunati VooDoo cam , or the old UltraDyne cam

[73 challenger 440]

it is amazing the engine even ran & didn`t bend valves if the dots were 3 teeth off , they couldn`t even be bothered to get a good double roller chain to install with the cam , the cam you have may be fine installed correctly
 I will not use Comp cams in Mopars , they are all based off small block Chev grinds , if you want a cam that make s power in a Mopar Use an Engle or Lunati VooDoo cam , or the old UltraDyne cam

Yea, that what I would ike to do is install the same camshaft back in.. but I think after all this work I did, I should just get another one.. here's some pics of it, what do you think? is this normal wear.. I am going to check into engle cams.. I like to be somehwere in the 230-236 duration and 470-480 lift..

[71chally416]

Best way to check a used cam is with a mic or calipers to see the amount of variation in the lobes. I'd go a little bigger on a new cam for  reasons already stated, but that's your call. 

[73 challenger 440]

I looked at engle cams single pattern cams, if I were to chose one it would probaly be the K-56 thats the rpm level I am looking for.. voodoo cam Part Number: 60303 is nice, but not crazy about the 6200rpm.. not sure how well the stock heads flow, and with an agressive cam like they  it would problay be very important to change the springs and rockers... to take advantage of there design. I am going to check into more.. I need to get an oil slinger, mine didn't have one..  I should be placing my order tomorrow.. I'll have a several days to clean the engine up ect, and paint.. anyone one run the cloyes double roller with out timing chain cover issues?