340 with no power

Author Topic: 340 with no power  (Read 7153 times)

Offline 71chally416

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2008 - 12:12:13 AM »
If I see a mis-matched part in his combo it has to be the carb. A 600 is a great carb for a bone stock 318 with single exhaust and stock cam, but it's just to small and too lean for a 346 with those heads and cam and an unheated intake with headers. Why do all that to improve the airflow of the motor (all internal combustion motors are just air pumps anyway...) and then handicap the whole combination with a small lean carb? That's like putting ported heads, a Dominator and a roller cam on it with 2" headers and then a single 2" tailpipe. Like did someone maybe get the whole motor together and then at the last second decide they wanted gas mileage??? :dunno:
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Offline SwedeFish

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2008 - 11:21:12 AM »
Swede, Did you check the float level when the carburetor was apart? Raising the float level will enrich the air/fuel ratio.    Also if the cam has a lot of overlap, which decreases engine vacuum, you may need lighter springs on the metering rods to allow them to be pulled down at idle like CP is suggesting in his last post.

The carb is still apart... Yes I did check the float level. It is at the recommended level 7/16" (if I remember it right). Should I go richer, raising the floats?

Offline SwedeFish

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2008 - 11:28:01 AM »
I saw a recent dyno test where substituting a 800cfm Thunder AVS got an easy 35 hp over the stock 600 carb on a stock 340 rebuild. Do ya still think the 600 is big enough?  :smilielol:

Ok, maybe it is not big enough, but it should be big enough to perform at low rpm's. According to the formula: (c.i.d X rpm)/3,456 and when the rpm is low the 600 cfm should be sufficient? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I will try my 700 DP tonight.

Offline SwedeFish

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2008 - 11:33:42 AM »
I just read the specs for the Edelbrock RPM camshaft. That's a pretty rowdy cam for a small engine like the 340. It should idle at about 900 RPM in neutral, with a drop to about 700-750 and choppy in gear. Chryco's advice for modifying the carb is spot-on, and a little reading on the tuning of carburetors for "non-stock" applications is a good idea. Given that all the distributor information is correct (as an MSD, it should be), an initial timing setting of 16-20 degrees, with between 16-24 degrees of advance, is about right. The advance should be "all in" at between 2500-2700 RPM, and the thing that seems to be forgotten here, is that the heads are aluminum. Aluminum heads not only tolerate more ignition advance, they require it. The double-pumper can be made to work, but I am not fond of this style of carb on a street-driven car. The transmission is doing exactly what it should,, as the stock governor in the trans will shift the gears at about 4,500 RPM in this application. Your options are basically two: change to a high-rpm governor, or shift it yourself when you are serious. I like option two, and use it often. I think that this could be a fun and awesome car, but it will always be soft at the bottom end.

Thanks for your input.

I will try to shift it manually, it is a slap-stick :)

I really hope that my distributor is ok, it is only one year old.

Offline SwedeFish

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2008 - 11:38:31 AM »
If I see a mis-matched part in his combo it has to be the carb. A 600 is a great carb for a bone stock 318 with single exhaust and stock cam, but it's just to small and too lean for a 346 with those heads and cam and an unheated intake with headers. Why do all that to improve the airflow of the motor (all internal combustion motors are just air pumps anyway...) and then handicap the whole combination with a small lean carb? That's like putting ported heads, a Dominator and a roller cam on it with 2" headers and then a single 2" tailpipe. Like did someone maybe get the whole motor together and then at the last second decide they wanted gas mileage??? :dunno:

Note taken  :cheers:
I don't care about milage, just want a car that performe like it should.

Would you say that my Holley 700DP is too small as well?

Offline SwedeFish

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2008 - 05:27:10 PM »
I raised the floats a little. Changed the power valve setting. Closed the throttle plates a bit more. Initial timing at 22*. Still rough idle. Couldn't take it for a spin tonight though.
Did check the vacuum tonight (it is almost midnight here in Sweden now). The metering rods did pop up. The reading on the vacuum gauge was between 5-7 psi. And this is strange; that the vacuum was not stable? Vacuum leak perhaps? If I have the time tomorrow I will check for leaks. Might a vacuum leak cause all my trouble as well as the lack of power?
 :violin:

Offline 422STROKER

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2008 - 05:55:49 PM »
Pretty low vacuum, what are the specs on that comp cam?

Try the DP it may be more tunable for you.

Tom :dunno:
Tom
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Offline SwedeFish

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2008 - 06:06:49 PM »
Pretty low vacuum, what are the specs on that comp cam?

Try the DP it may be more tunable for you.

Tom :dunno:

It is not a comp cam, it is an Edelbrock, Perfomer RPM.  234/244 .488"/.510"

Offline Supercuda

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2008 - 06:10:20 PM »
Swedefish, it sounds like you are chasing a few problems. Let's take this slowly, and with as much order as possible: What was the needle doing on your vacuum gauge? Was it floating slowly between the upper and lower readings? Was it vibrating rapidly between the two readings? The action of the needle is as important as the numbers it points to. What is your altitude? This will also affect the engine's ability to run. The 600 CFM carburetor should work fine, but run out of breath above about 5,500 RPM. A common problem with carb installations is the base gasket. Is your gasket installed properly? Are there any mis-matches between the gasket an the bottom of the carb? How about the top of the carb flange on the intake manifold? I have seen a spreadbore gasket installed under a squarebore carb before- boy did that run like a dog. I have also seen the gasket installed backwards, and sideways (once). Are all vacuum ports on the carb sealed or attached to components that they should be? Your metering rod pistons should be all the way down at idle, and the springs that came with your carb are not going to allow this at idle with such low vacuum. You really need to drill a hole in each of the primary throttle blades, and do it like Chryco suggested. While you have the carb upside-down for drilling the throttle blades, adjust your idle speed screw until the blades are just above the idle fuel port in the venturii. After you have done these things, put the carb back on, and adjust the mixture screws out 2 turns from seated. This will give you a good starting point for your further adjustments. A good way to check the need for additional airflow at idle (without removing the carb or drilling the throttle blades), is to open the secondary throttle blades, to allow more air into the engine without moving the primaries with the idle speed screw. If the idle speed picks up, and smooths out, you need to drill the plates. Keep your initial timing at between 16-20 degrees, and adjust your carb for best idle and highest vacuum. After doing this, it is safe to play with your timing, to get the proper advance curve and total advance number. I think that there must be something simple that you are overlooking, and it is frustrating you without letting you know it's wrong. Raising the float level from a measured 7/16" to about 3/8", is a good idea as well. I hope this helps a little.

Offline SwedeFish

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2008 - 06:27:54 PM »
Thankyou Supercuda for all your inputs.

Swedefish, it sounds like you are chasing a few problems. Let's take this slowly, and with as much order as possible: What was the needle doing on your vacuum gauge? Was it floating slowly between the upper and lower readings? Was it vibrating rapidly between the two readings? The action of the needle is as important as the numbers it points to. What is your altitude? This will also affect the engine's ability to run.

The needle was vibrating. It was difficult to read the numbers, but it was vibrating between 5-7. Altitude here is lose to sea level.

The 600 CFM carburetor should work fine, but run out of breath above about 5,500 RPM. A common problem with carb installations is the base gasket. Is your gasket installed properly? Are there any mis-matches between the gasket an the bottom of the carb? How about the top of the carb flange on the intake manifold? I have seen a spreadbore gasket installed under a squarebore carb before- boy did that run like a dog. I have also seen the gasket installed backwards, and sideways (once).

The problem right now is not that it runs out of breathe above 5500 rpm but as soon as I have my idle problems and low end power problems fixed I will deal with the top end power and maybe change to a bigger carb if necessary. I don't think that I have installed the gasket wrong, but I will double check.

Are all vacuum ports on the carb sealed or attached to components that they should be? Your metering rod pistons should be all the way down at idle, and the springs that came with your carb are not going to allow this at idle with such low vacuum. You really need to drill a hole in each of the primary throttle blades, and do it like Chryco suggested. While you have the carb upside-down for drilling the throttle blades, adjust your idle speed screw until the blades are just above the idle fuel port in the venturii. After you have done these things, put the carb back on, and adjust the mixture screws out 2 turns from seated. This will give you a good starting point for your further adjustments.

All vacuum ports sealed. Metering rods pops out during idle. I will buy new springs. I will also drill those holes that you suggest and adjust the blades.

A good way to check the need for additional airflow at idle (without removing the carb or drilling the throttle blades), is to open the secondary throttle blades, to allow more air into the engine without moving the primaries with the idle speed screw. If the idle speed picks up, and smooths out, you need to drill the plates. Keep your initial timing at between 16-20 degrees, and adjust your carb for best idle and highest vacuum. After doing this, it is safe to play with your timing, to get the proper advance curve and total advance number. I think that there must be something simple that you are overlooking, and it is frustrating you without letting you know it's wrong. Raising the float level from a measured 7/16" to about 3/8", is a good idea as well. I hope this helps a little.

Thanks again.

BR
Kristoffer

Offline Bullitt-

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2008 - 07:29:42 PM »
good write up on vacuum leaks
http://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/Summer2003/VacuumLeaks.htm

I found most any petroleum based spray cleaner, such as brake clean, will cause the motor to speed up when you spray near a leak

Also set your timing with the vacuum advance disconnected & the source capped. Set your carburetor idle up this way also.
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Offline 71chally416

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2008 - 07:34:58 PM »
I'd say the 700DP is a lot closer to ideal than a 600.  I don't care what any formula says, a 600 is too small for a built up 340.

I did 12.80's @ 109 using a 800 Thermoquad on my little 8 to 1 compression 318 with a stock convertor along with 1.8/1.9 60 ft times. I never once thought it was "Too big".   :grinno:
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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2008 - 01:29:24 AM »
you need to ghet a lighter spring under the metering rods . it will idle a lot better with a 4" spring in there

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Offline moper

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2008 - 12:13:16 PM »
Ok, It sounds like several problems. So here's how I think it's playing out: The drop in rpm is a sign of just not making any power. Same with the low vacuum. The only issue you should have with that carb is as CP mentioned, the step up springs under the mtering rod pistons. You get no idle mix adjustment because you have the idle speed screw in too far and the throttle plates are past the idle ports and into the transfer slots down in the carb's venturi. So, why no power? The RPM cam is not really large. It also is not really good IMO. You could have done better. In any case, it should idle clean, and there is no reason why it can't be idling at 700-800 out of gear, and the rpms shouldnt drop much at all. You said you "think you degreed it.." You can't think you did. If you are not sure because you couldnt get the result you should have, it's not degreed. I would get a cylinder pressure reading off this engine for starters. Look for something in the 140psi range. If it's down around 120, the cam needs to be degreed properly and effectively. Then you can move to tuning. Timing is always done first, carb dead last. I would be looking like CP said... 16-20 initial, the largest bushing MSD has (IIRC that's 18°?) with the "one blue, one light silver" combo. That will get you close. Then the carb gets tuned, and you'll need the Edelbrock tuning kit for that carb. Keep after it. You're right, it's down on power, but fixable.

Offline SwedeFish

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Re: 340 with no power
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2008 - 01:47:37 PM »
Ok, It sounds like several problems. So here's how I think it's playing out: The drop in rpm is a sign of just not making any power. Same with the low vacuum. The only issue you should have with that carb is as CP mentioned, the step up springs under the mtering rod pistons. You get no idle mix adjustment because you have the idle speed screw in too far and the throttle plates are past the idle ports and into the transfer slots down in the carb's venturi. So, why no power? The RPM cam is not really large. It also is not really good IMO. You could have done better. In any case, it should idle clean, and there is no reason why it can't be idling at 700-800 out of gear, and the rpms shouldnt drop much at all. You said you "think you degreed it.." You can't think you did. If you are not sure because you couldnt get the result you should have, it's not degreed. I would get a cylinder pressure reading off this engine for starters. Look for something in the 140psi range. If it's down around 120, the cam needs to be degreed properly and effectively. Then you can move to tuning. Timing is always done first, carb dead last. I would be looking like CP said... 16-20 initial, the largest bushing MSD has (IIRC that's 18°?) with the "one blue, one light silver" combo. That will get you close. Then the carb gets tuned, and you'll need the Edelbrock tuning kit for that carb. Keep after it. You're right, it's down on power, but fixable.

Thanks.

I used a degree wheel to degree the cam but I had sme problems finding the right ILC (?), don't know what I did wrong really, maybe I didn't mount the degree wheel tight enough or maybe my piston stop moved. Anyway, I then istaled the cam using the marks, installed it straight up. Off course this might be a source for my problems. I have decided to pull the engine out of the car during this winter and have this checked.
The largest (black) bushing is 18*.
I will try all of your suggestions ASAP. :)
Thanks again to all, I feel much better now  :cheers: